Developing E-6 film as a color NEGATIVE

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by David Lyga, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    Which is better and why?

    Developing the E-6 film in C-41 dev (CD4) or in RA4 dev (CD3)? I know that color film needs heroic blix strength and that the RA4 type might not be strong enough. Assume that that part is solved. Focus upon the developer.

    Also, is there an advantage with processing the E-6 film FIRST in a B&W developer, then in the color developer? (Perhaps for added contrast or more muted saturation.) I can work out times and temp. (Your replies will be indicative as to whether this topic is too hackneyed.) - David Lyga
     
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  2. BMbikerider

    BMbikerider Member

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    I cannot offer advice on what to do with the development stage but it strikes me as a little odd that you would want to. Surely using C41 colour negative film would be far better on cost alone. E6 slide film is getting on for almost double the cost of C41. Are you after some sort of special effect? Don't forget if you bleach an E6 film after the 1st development stage to get the negative, you would not have the orange mask of conventional C41 fil which may make printing it a little difficult,
     
  3. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    I have a bulk roll of Ektachrome 200 that is still good. And other slide films as well. -David Lyga
     
  4. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Color film is designed specifically to be developed in a particular developer using a specific color developing agent. Any deviation from this will produce color shifts and possible crossover which may not be correctable during the printing stage. Probably not a good idea unless you want a peculiar color effect. PE would be able to be more specific as to the actual color changes.
     
  5. Simonh82

    Simonh82 Member

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    I have tinkered with limited success with reversal processing using C41 developer and bleach and fix. You can see the results here http://www.flickr.com/photos/28305528@N02/sets/72157630542365440/. I was pretty much shooting in the dark as far as times and first developer dilutions go but everything I had read previously had said you need a long strong first developer to avoid under development. I think mine was too long/strong as all of my shots were overdeveloped. I've never gone back to it as I can get E6 processing done for £2.75 locally so I have no need but I liked the experiment. With further experimentation I am sure you could get better results.

    I've also done lots of more 'traditional' cross-processing back in the day. Just developing slide film in C41 chemicals using the standard times and temperature. You tend to get increased contrast and saturation and often very strong colour casts. These can be corrected or accentuated to a certain degree depending on what you are after.
     
  6. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    But Sinonh82, I am not talking about REVERSAL PROCESSING. Instead, I am referring to processing REVERSAL FILM NOT as a positive, but as a NEGATIVE so I can make a print from it. In other words, consider E-6 film as if it were PRINT film. - David Lyga
     
  7. L Gebhardt

    L Gebhardt Subscriber

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    Just search for cross-processing. There are tons of posts out there. I think any question of what's better requirs your to state what you are trying to achieve. I don't think you will get results nearly as good (technically, but not maybe esthetically) as using a good color negative film. But at it's simplest just run the film through the C-41 chemicals at the normal times. Adjust the exposure index as needed and add filtration if the color balance is off. Each film will be different. The contrast will be high. The Fuji films come out very green so a magenta filter is helpful. The Kodak films are more neutral. I've never tried using RA4 chemicals. In any case you should experiment to see what you like best.
     
  8. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    David,

    You're not going to like this probably BUT I've seen some AMAZING E-6 processed in C-41 chemistry, I believe it requires an EI of -2 stops (200 speed film shot at 50) and it looks really great, the blues and sand colors are really lovely, I forget the guys name who does it often, I'm sorry but I do know one thing, he SCANNS his film, so I'm not sure how it would look printed because of the lack of orange mask. But processed in C-41 and scanned, it looks really great, especially Velvia and Provia, not so sure about Ektachrome 200.

    I'm about to do a run of C-41 though, if you send me a roll I can shoot it and scan it and send the results without touchups and show you what it looks like?


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  9. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have always preferred the look of C41 film developed in E6.. Basically you need to under expose and push process, the best ones I have seen are 4 stop pushes. This really pisses off the Refrema operator and has to be done in off hours.

    I have been thinking of making a series of chromes exactly like this. very cool look IMO.
     
  10. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    John Callow here on APUG has done more E6 in C41 film than anyone I have ever came across and could add some insight.
     
  11. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    I happened to me once by accident, right after I had returned from a particularly long backpack trip and the lab accidentally put my
    Ektachrome into C41. I wasn't amused. We ran a bunch of prints onto C paper and results were interesting, with the much wider contrast
    range characteristic of negs, but the full correct color balance impossible to achieve. A bit otherworldly, though maybe appealing in some
    weird artsy sense.
     
  12. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    Stone: there IS an orange mask when you process E-6 film in the C-41 process. I know because I already do it. I just wanted input as to a better way. True, you do have to overexpose by about two stops, but you do get adequate colors.

    Drew: I have managed to get adequate print color, not perfect but decent. Also, for purely aesthetic purposes this process could be interesting. - David Lyga
     
  13. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    I've done it, too green for me, and this is the opposite of the OP's question and not helpful to him just FYI


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  15. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Are you sure about this David? Why would there be an orange mask? The film is on a clear base, so there should be no orange mask .... This confuses me....


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  16. Peter de Groot

    Peter de Groot Member

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    I have done several films in c41. They all had a clear base. The orange mask in my experience is incorporated in the film base.
     
  17. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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    Actually, the orange color results from the use of colored couplers- they have color BEFORE being developed - the color changes on development.

    The colored couplers are used for correcting unwanted color adsorption by the image dyes.

    See: http://photo.net/learn/orange-negative-mask for a more complete explanation.
     
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  18. Simonh82

    Simonh82 Member

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    I've cross processed dozens of rolls of film and the colour of the base varies from film to film, although there is more consistence between manufacturers. Kodak films often do have a light brown base and the resulting images when scanned as a CN have a more natural colour balance. Fuji films seen to come out with a bluer base, with Velvia darker and greener than Provia. Agfa films seem to give a purple base. The base colour obviously makes a big difference to the final image when it is inverted.
     
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  19. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    STONE: Despite it being counter-intuitive, when I process the Ekatchrome in C-41 developer, there is, indeed, an orange mask throughout. - David Lyga
     
  20. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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    There may be some level of non-image stain (probably due to the blix), but it's not the same orange masking that results from the couplers in C-41 negative films.
     
  21. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Yea I would wonder if it's from not fully fixing or something, the blix is a very red/orange color. I'll be attaining a separate bleach / fix soon for E-6 so maybe I'll get one for C-41 and see if it changes.


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  22. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    STONE: I ALWAYS use potassium ferricyanide for bleach. The mask is orange if, and only if, you process as C-41. NOT stain. - David Lyga
     
  23. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Ok I'll try it soon :smile:


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  24. David Lyga

    David Lyga Subscriber

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    I think that the actual chemical process makes the mask either orange or null because we both know that Ektachrome will always be clear when processed for a positive in E-6. - David Lyga
     
  25. EdSawyer

    EdSawyer Member

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    I have a new box of EPP 100 (expired of course) that I might try this with. I am sure the color must have shifted so this could be the best use of it.
     
  26. RPC

    RPC Member

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    You should stop using the word "mask". It may be orange but is not a mask in the true sense of the word.