Diafine revisited: Ascorbate version

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Relayer, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    I was made some experiment with Diafine formula and replace 6g of Hydroquinone in bath A to 10g of Sodium Ascorbate. so my formula of Diafine-C:

    Bath A
    Sodium sulfite 65g
    Phenidone 0,2g
    Sodium Ascorbate 10g
    Sodium metabisulfite 5g
    Water 1l

    Bath B
    Borax 10g
    Sodium sulfite 65g
    Water 1l

    usage 3min in each bath. results is very good - really less grain
    HP5+ @400, scan 2400dpi, left Diafine-C, right - Diafine
    [​IMG]
     
  2. el wacho

    el wacho Member

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    great results.

    does it give the speed increase with the borax?
    what are the keeping properties of bath A?
     
  3. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    Phenidone at 0.01g/L is a slow developer.Can you verify that you are not just getting development in bath B due to carry over of bath A on the film surface,tank and reel rather than due to developer absorbed in the emulsion?
     
  4. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    yes, compare to original PQ version ascorbate produce more dense negatives. I can't talk about speed because when we rate film as more speed we have more grain
    keeping properties of bath A is very good because low pH.
    formula for Diafine I found in Steve Anchell "The Darkroom Cookbook"
     
  5. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    Phenidone is 0.2g/l, not 0.01g/l ))
     
  6. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    I mean that due to carry over on the film surface,tank and reel the phenidone concentration in bath B may be such as to produce the image,it may not be due to phenidone absorbed in the emulsion and therefore not true 2-bath development.
    Just pour 20ml bath A into 500ml bath B and see if this will develop the film,if so it is not 2-bath development.
     
  7. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    Alan, my experiments with 2 bath developers not confirm this. I was try more than 10 different 2 bath developers and 2nd bath isn't one-shot (sometime I make fresh solution). always I get same result from each developer.
    3min in 2nd bath is very small time and developing going only in film surface
     
  8. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    some interesting fact:
    20ml of any stock (D76, D23 or other) + 1g Sodium carbonate + 300ml of water require 20-25min for developing HP5@400. compare this time with 3min in borax alkali (as bath B).
    if you add 20ml of bath A into bath B and put film to bath B (skip bath A) for 3min - you have blank negatives - trust me ))
     
  9. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    Well you are claiming to have made the first ever successful phenidone ascorbate 2-bath developer.
    A serious scientific claim requires more evidence than "trust me" IMO.
     
  10. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    I'm not a "scientific". you can simply try this formula instead posting abstract theory here ))
     
  11. el wacho

    el wacho Member

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    hi Relayer,

    more speed ( essentially a little underexposure ) doesn't mean more grain. how did you come to that conclusion? phenidone is known as a developing agent that can give an extra stop. since you were making a diafine type developer, i thought it was one of the characteristics you were emulating. another one of the great properties of diafine is the keeping properties of bath A ( well over a year ). when you say the keeping properties are good, is it because you've stored a control bottle that you've tested, say, 6 months down the road? i suspect that 65g sodium sulfite is contributing substantially to the fine grain plus the shortish time of 3 + 3 and the borax.
    sincerely, good luck with your experimenting. i really hope this ascorbate developer proves to be as stable as diafine. looking forward to your future reports on this developer.
     
  12. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    keeping properties of bath A (or any other developer) depended from a) pH b) amount of Sodium sulfite or other antioxidant (by example hydroxylamine in some color dev). in true-two-bath developers bath A have low pH (~6.5-7) and developing can't start in bath A. low pH increase storage life of bath A. sodium ascorbate also working as slow antioxidant and with 65g/l of sodium sulfite extend life of solution. my experience tell me that developer solution with slightly acidic pH have very good keeping properties.

    other interesting formula which work like modified Diafine is metol-ascorbate 2bath developer MCDD:

    Bath A
    Metol 5g
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Sodium Ascorbate 10g
    Sodium metabisulfite 5g
    Water 1l

    Bath B
    Borax 10g
    Sodium sulfite 35g
    Water 1l

    3min in each bath. give same density as PC-Diafine. but grain/sharpness/contrast is slightly more
     
  13. eSPhotos

    eSPhotos Member

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    I wonder if this formula works without ascorbate ... I think it does.
    Without ascorbate it resembles one of many DD23 or DD76.
     
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  15. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    if you omit ascorbate this formula can't be working because acidic pH in bath A (5g/l sodium metabisulfite). many 2bath variation of D23/D76 really isn't true-two-bath developers because developing started in bath A. it's really lazy-split. by example you can put film in any stock (D76,D23,XTOL or other) for 30% less time than required and after this put film into alkali (borax, soda etc) for 3-5min. this is well-known method described in many books
    in case of true-2bath developing can't start in bath A! you can put film in bath A for 3min ... or 15min without any differences in result
     
  16. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    I have done some testing of Diafine-C with APX 100 film.
    At 3 min +3min the negatives are thin, at 5min +5min ,slightly too dense and the EI greater than box speed.
    Developing in 20 ml part A +500ml part B for 5min to simulate the effect of carry-over on the film surface, tank and reel gives a faint image apparently insignificant compared to 5min + 5min 2 bath development.
    My conclusion is that Diafine-C is a true 2-bath developer, the first succesful one to be disclosed of the phenidone/ascorbate type.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2011
  17. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    Alan, thank you for testing! really don't need to put film in bath A more than 3min. bath B very depended from agitation. I recommended 5 initial rotation and 2-3 rotation per min
     
  18. brianmquinn

    brianmquinn Member

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    Just an FYI
    Every 2 bath developer I tested showed some development in bath A alone.
    Some gave slight developement and in some 2 bath formulas MOST of the development happened in bath A.
    Daifine is one that only gives a very faint image in bath A if left in for only 3 minutes.
    Try stand devlopment for and hour in Daifine bath A alone and you will get printable negatives.
    Try it. Shoot off a sequence of 3 brackted shots, clip those off the end of your roll and toss them in bath A alone and wait.
     
  19. el wacho

    el wacho Member

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    catechol in sodium metabisulphite as a bath A won't develop until the film is immersed in sodium hydroxide as a bath B will do all the development.
     
  20. MichaelMadio

    MichaelMadio Member

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    This is very interesting. I was going to try a 2-part phenidone/C developer myself with the main difference being no sulfite (I have had great success with PC sulfite-free developers). The recipe I had in my notes to try is as follows:

    Part A:
    Ascorbic Acid - 6g
    Phenidone - 0.15g
    Sodium Bicarbonate - 3g
    Water to make 1L

    Part B:
    Borax - 20g
    Water to make 1L

    I use the same amounts of Phenidone/Vit-C/Borax in a L of water to make a 1-part developer that works well and lasts a very long time (bottle over 6 months old works like new). I have no idea how/if this version works but I will report back when I find out.
     
  21. albada

    albada Subscriber

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    Michael, did you get around to trying this? Did it work?

    Mark Overton
     
  22. bwfans

    bwfans Member

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    Any comments on the storage, shelf life and the capacity compare with Diafine?
     
  23. analog what is that?

    analog what is that? Member

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    This has now been verified in a slightly different formula over here in close cooperation with Michael, the results of which will be published shortly in our blog, illustrated and notes during the experiment phase.
     
  24. albada

    albada Subscriber

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    That's good news, and I'm glad to hear that this idea is being pursued to a conclusion.
    Please post a reply here when you add your results to the blog.

    Mark Overton
     
  25. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    My Diafine-C,kept under inert gas, is now 5 months old and works OK. I prefer the results from 5min+5min.
    It seems to be the accepted wisdom that in part full bottles hydroquinone based developer (Diafine) will oxidize more slowly than ascorbate (-C version).
    Diafine-C works well in expose for shadows contrasty situations.
     

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  26. gorbas

    gorbas Subscriber

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    Nice results Relayer! Hard to tell from this small pictures, but Diafine C grain looks "mushy" - not well defined or sharp?
    In the past I used Tetenal Emofin and Difine. With Emofin I had way better results. But it's hard to find developer, even in Europe.