Dilution question

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by shuttershane, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. shuttershane

    shuttershane Member

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    So I am a little confused. So I am going to try developing my first roll of b&w film with Rodinal. The dilution recommended is 1:25

    I have a Patterson Universal which I understand holds 500ml. How do I calculate 1:25 for 500ml?

    Is it like this?
    500/25 = 20
    500 -20 = 480

    So that would mean 20ml of Rodinal go into 480ml of water?

    Or am I totally missing something here?
     
  2. clayne

    clayne Member

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    There's a million threads on this, but in short...

    devel = 500 * 1/25 = 20
    water = 500 - (500 * 1/25) = 480

    And at these dilution levels, the disparity between 25 or 26 total parts is not going to make or break things.

    I recommend you use 1:50 for your first time, though.
     
  3. shuttershane

    shuttershane Member

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    OK cool, thanks Clayne. I will take your suggestion and do a 1:50.

    Sorry I know its been covered but I kept seeing conflicting answers...but your explanation about the disparity eases my mind.

    I developed film a very long time ago but that's when I was in school so all is forgotten
     
  4. clayne

    clayne Member

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    Whenever you see 1:50, within photo-circles and depending on who you're talking to, it could mean anything from 1 part dev, 49 parts water or 1 part dev, 50 parts water. That's why you'll commonly see 1+49, because it's clear it's 1 part dev, 49 parts water. In reality though we're talking .2ml variation - not enough to matter.
     
  5. R.Gould

    R.Gould Member

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    Simple anwser, divide the total required I:E 500 by the dilution +1, in your case 25, so divide 500 by 26,round it up very slightly, and you have your dilution, 20 to 480, this works for any dilution, and came from Patterson many years ago. one suggestion, when using Patterson tanks it is better to put a bit more developer in the tank, I would suggest 600, which at 1/25 works out at 24 developer to 576 water,as patterson reels can slip very slightly up the center colum, and leave a fraction of the film out of the chemicals,
    Richard
     
  6. chuck94022

    chuck94022 Subscriber

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    Agree with Richard, and will add that if you have a multi-reel tank, use both reels (set the empty one to take up the slack on the column), put the reel with film at the bottom of course. This will reduce the chance of the reel coming up out of the fluid.
     
  7. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Member

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    excactly!
     
  8. Tony-S

    Tony-S Member

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    Yes, that's correct. And it is a 1:25 dilution or, what I prefer, 1+24.
     
  9. Tony-S

    Tony-S Member

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    That's perfectly fine for large dilutions, but when one talks about D-76 at 1:1 (undiluted) vs. 1+1 (1 part D-76 and 1 part water; i.e., 1:2 dilution) it is two very different things in chemistry parlance.
     
  10. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    So is a 1:1 dilution 1+0?

    I think it's only chemists who think of 1:25 as one part in a total of twenty five. The rest of us think of it as ratio i.e. one part to twenty five parts.

    So 1:1 would be the same as 1+1 i.e. equal quantities of developer and water.



    Steve.
     
  11. shuttershane

    shuttershane Member

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    Thanks for this reply. I plan to attempt all of this later today. You guys rock with all the great suggestions.

    Last night I watched tv while practicing putting 120 film onto the reels. I think I have this part down.
     
  12. Tony-S

    Tony-S Member

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    Yes, undiluted. Mathematically, it's the easiest way and least prone to confusion and error.

    You should think of it for what it is - a dilution factor; "one divided by twenty-five". That way you can easily determine volumes so long as you know the final volume you need. For instance, if you need 750 ml at 1:25 it would be:

    725 ml / 25 df = 30 ml of developer
    725 ml - 30 ml = 695 ml of water
    --------------------------------------
    30 ml of developer plus 695 ml of water is a total of 725 ml at 1:25

    Yes, I was corrupted by my high school photography teacher, too, nearly 40 years ago! :smile: Fortunately, I was straightened out by a college biology professor (who also taught photography in the department).

    But 1:1 is a ratio, i.e., 1/1, which equals 1. And anything divided by 1 is undiluted, in this case, straight D-76.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2012
  13. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    This could be overcome by stating, simply:
    One part of Rodinal, to 24 parts water.
    D76 undiluted.
    One part D76 to one part water.

    That, to me, surpasses the 'least confusing' criteria, because it isn't even confusing at all. :smile:
     
  14. fotch

    fotch Member

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    I have to agree with Steve on this. I am not corrupted by a chemist background however, I do have common sense. I may also add, it has always worked right, never a problem.
     
  15. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    I know we have discussed this before but I have always thought of it like this:

    1:3 can be stated as 1 to 3. i.e. one part of something to three parts of something else.


    Steve.
     
  16. Tony-S

    Tony-S Member

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    But unfortunately Kodak uses 1:1 while Ilford uses 1+1, thus the potential problem. If they say in their data sheet "one part D76 to one part water" then that would be fine. But they don't.

    I'll assume that you don't mean I don't have common sense. :wink:

    And that's fine for you, but when communicating information to others, especially those who are new, 1:1 is more readily screwed up than is 1+1.

    But to me, and many others, "1 to 3" is one part developer and 2 parts water. The "+" symbol is unequivocal while the ":" symbol isn't.
     
  17. Bruce Osgood

    Bruce Osgood Membership Council Council

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    Simply put, it is a RATIO not arithmetic.

    A 1:3 ratio means one part something to make 3.

    1 + 3 is not a ratio, it is arithmetic and means 4.

    " i.e. one part of something to three parts of something else." would equal 4 and is arithmetic.
     
  18. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    I know that; my little recommendation was more of a dream scenario than anything. My own philosophy is to try to never use abbreviated expressions, because they cause confusion usually, as evidenced here.
     
  19. clayne

    clayne Member

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    Guys, can we please not have another 500 page thread on a topic we've all beaten to death already? :smile:

    I think we all know that depending on which field one is working with, 1:1 could mean straight/undiluted, because of parts vs total parts, but it's very well known to all of us, that within photo-circles, it is not parts vs total parts, but instead parts vs other parts. And since we're almost always dealing with something:water, common sense should translate 1:1 as half this, half that.

    The only people who take issue with this are the ones who cannot adapt to the "corruption" of the measuring systems being used. However, I will once again reiterate that nobody ever said that it's ratio of one part : total parts, even with the ':' notation. 1:1 makes perfect sense if you think about it as parts : other parts.

    If you see D-76 1:1 and you mix it straight because 'chemistry books say so damn it!' then you're not using common sense.
     
  20. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Member

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    the trouble wiyh common sense is thst it isn' very common.
     
  21. Tony-S

    Tony-S Member

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    If only it were qualitative or quantitative. But unfortunately, it's subjective.