Direct Positive sepia-toned slide with Shallot-based developer

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by DarkroomExperimente, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    earlier tonight I developed a roll of Tri-X in one of my homemade developers

    the basic formula for all my experiments is: (stuff to test) + (sodium carbonate)

    so this time it was a developer made from chopped up shallots ( similar to onion, supposed to have a lot of Quercetin ) that soaked in a water/alcohol mix for a week

    the developer was 750 ml of the shallot "extract" + 4 tbsp of sodium carbonate ( not all dissolved )

    a short strip of Tri-X was developed for 3 hours....when I first looked at the film i thought I have thin negatives with a nice sepia tint....

    when I looked again i realized these were POSITIVE images!!!

    onions and garlic have allyl propyl disulphide in them ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allyl_propyl_disulfide ) ....I wonder is this behaving anything like sodium sulfide which I understand can act as a fogging developer?....could this or something else work on the unexposed silver and leave the latent image alone????

    red onion did NOTHING to film when I tried it...so I was expecting the shallot developer to be weak or another total failure

    it seems there was no normal development of the images....on the tail of film that was sticking out of the cassette there's the usual dark developed area....but everything else is a lighter brown tone...

    what's going on??

    I'll post scans tomorrow when the film is dry
     
  2. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    Cool! show!
     
  3. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    here's one of the two images...if I had known this was going to happen I would have developed the whole roll...but i only processed a short strip of film


    SO-1-shallotslide-3-post.jpg
     
  4. ME Super

    ME Super Member

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    Odd that I don't see any edge markings... but still that's pretty cool! I hope you measured carefully and wrote down your recipe.
     
  5. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    yes I wrote down the recipe....it's up in my first comment

    re: edge markings....the edges and areas between frames are actually pretty dark...dunno why edges seem so light in the scanned image...on the actual film the edges are much darker
     
  6. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    I suppose that's because of the auto-leveling software. It sees the sprocket holes and includes that white space in the exposure calculation. If you crop out the sprocket holes in your scan software, you may see a better result.
     
  7. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    thanks...I usually crop out the sprocket holes

    just got back from the store with a huge supply of shallot & garlic to try this again
     
  8. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    People at the store will be wondering if you have been spending too much time reading about vampires :wink:
     
  9. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    Onions and similar vegetable contain disulfides and other thio compounds, like sepia toners.
     
  10. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    I wonder if the developing ability of the shallots will be as variable as their taste. There are some very mild shallots and some very sharp ones... I certainly hope your result is reproducible, it's intriguing! Offhand the CI of the slide doesn't look very favorable though... I hope I'm wrong.
     
  11. jjphoto

    jjphoto Member

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    Try it with paper. Maybe you can shoot positives in a large format camera (or pinhole camera, ie shoebox), using normal photo paper.

    JJ
     
  12. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    got two containers full of new shallots...one soaking in the original water/alcohol...one just in water

    i was going to do another run tonight...but ended up doing something else...so tomorrow hopefully I'll find out if this is easy to reproduce or if it's just some weird thing that only happens when the planets are aligned...
     
  13. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    e

    Tried it again tonight.......no image, but I get the same nice sepia-ish tone all over the film

    after the film dries I'll give it a closer examination...but for now I don't see any image at all

    so now I'm wondering...how many times will I have to try this to get this effect to appear again?

    since I was expecting the shallots to develop the film because of quercetin...i'm wondering if adding quercetin might do something interesting?

    who knows...now I have more of a mystery than I did before.....

    now the shallots only soaked in the water/alcohol for about 24 hours...not the full week like before...so that may be an issue
     
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  15. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    if variability of shallots is an issue...might have to test 1 shallot at a time...otherwise it might take a billion years to randomly get 6 identical shallots

    there is gonna be a lot of smelly developer in my future
     
  16. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    about the 1 day vs 5 days ...
    how about have a batch of your developer and take some out every day and test it upto 5 days ..
    maybe it is the how long you steep the shallots too ...
     
  17. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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  18. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    Wikipedia suggests that tea shodul have much higher quercetin levels...

    I think my approach would be the opposite- get a lot of different kinds, throw in some red onions to, make a nice soup. Something in the soup will do the job.

    I guess there is a fair amount of selenium in there too. I tend to think of nuts and garlic and onions and such containing appreciable selenium. Not sure if that is a good thing or not.
     
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  19. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    thanks...I am also going to test garlic

    going to test the shallot with added quercetin...since I have quercetin
     
  20. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    later today I'm going to try and simulate what jnanian suggested in the other thread...that underdevelopment & fog generated the positive image

    going to use quercetin ( which I was hoping what would actually be the developing agent in onions/shallots ) and sodium sulfide from a print toner

    gonna do it in 50/50 water/alcohol since the original experiment was a water/alcohol mix....that may have nothing to do with it...BUT if the carbonate causes the water and alcohol to separate ( like it did in the red onion test ) then perhaps it could have some effect since some things would be more soluble in alcohol than water

    also...I think in the first test I didn't do much agitation...dunno if that changes anything or not

    any suggestions??
     
  21. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    just tested 1.5 g quercetin with 0.5 g sodium sulfide in 500 water/alcohol with sodium carbonate....

    totally fogged negative
     
  22. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    testing Shallot developer again tonight...

    this time the ground-up shallots were soaked in water only ( no isopropyl alcohol ) for 4 days

    after 30 min I removed half of the film...NO sepia tone...faint negative image

    will remove the rest of the film after a few more hours

    ....also...instead of dumping out the ground-up shallots after draining the fluid, I put them back in the container and added 99% isopropyl alcohol...and will later test that

    SO...it seems that whatever generates the sepia tone might be soluble in alcohol but not water (?!?)

    the adventure continues
     
  23. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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  24. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    Progress:

    soaking shallots in WATER: negative image, no amber/sepia tone

    soaking shallots in 99% ALCOHOL: no image, strong amber tone
     
  25. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    just ran another test...as close to the first run as possible...seems like I might have positive images again...but won't be sure until film is dry

    pulled one strip out after an hour...there is more film still in the developer to come out later
     
  26. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

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    Yup.....positive images again...so that first experiment wasn't a fluke

    I'll post a few images tomorrow when the film is dry