Do you "cheat" the start marks with rollfilm backs?

Discussion in 'Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by 2F/2F, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Hello,

    I have two 6x7 rollfilm backs for 4x5. One is a modern-style Horseman and the other is a Graflex RH-10 (lever wind). I have not used the Horseman yet, and the last time I used the Graflex was several years ago.

    When I load Ilford film into my Mamiya SLR bodies, I always need to turn it one full turn past the start marks in order to get the first shot onto the roll. With Fuji color films, I need to go 1/2 turn past the mark. It happens like this with both of my Mamiya 645 bodies (and the third one that I sold), and on my RZ. It does not happen with my Super 23 or C33 (both 1960s cameras). The cameras with inserts are the ones that are always off: the ones that wrap the film around so it is emulsion up. The ones that load the film directly into the camera emulsion down without using inserts are always right on. Ilford and Fuji are always 1/2 turn off from each other as well.

    Next, since the RZ and M645 inserts are similar in design to the Graflex and Horseman inserts for 4x5, in you all's experience, do you need to make adjustments for the first frame with either Horseman or RH-10 backs?

    My expected response is that something is wrong with all three of my M645s and my RZ, or with the way I am loading my film into my Mamiya SLRs.

    Thank you in advance.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2009
  2. Ian David

    Ian David Member

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    My 6x7 Horseman back works fine with Ilford films, without any cheat necessary. I just line up the arrow in the hole and everything is sweet - 10 exposures evenly spaced.
     
  3. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

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    My RB67 backs work fine with Ilford film at the indicated start point too.



    Steve.
     
  4. martyryan

    martyryan Member

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    both of my m645's and my RB67 work well with all of the films I have tried.

    Marty
     
  5. kraker

    kraker Subscriber

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    No problem whatsoever with my Mamiya C3 and 120 film or my Bronica RF645 and 120 or 220 film. Tried many brands, always works like a charm.
     
  6. bsdunek

    bsdunek Subscriber

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    Same with my Mamiya 23 Press backs - line up the arrows with the marks, close the back and everything is OK. Perhaps something is worn in your back causing it to mis-index.
     
  7. Lopaka

    Lopaka Member

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    My Mamiya 645 and RZ are both fine - with Ilford, Fuji and Kodak films. All come out with similar amount of space at beginning and end of roll without needing to fudge the load.

    Bob
     
  8. Shangheye

    Shangheye Member

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    No problem with my Bronica SQ Ai or my TLR or Holga...EXCEPT with Adox film....first frame is always cut off, even when I cheat the start...go figure. I have not worked out what that costs me in film (not cheap at 8.3% loss, but I love the film too much to complain. K
     
  9. DJGainer

    DJGainer Member

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    I never noticed any issue with Fuji or Ilford in my RB67 Pro-S backs. Line up the arrows, advance to frame 1, and all frames were on the roll.
     
  10. El Gringo

    El Gringo Subscriber

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    My RB back works fine, I've tried a number of different film makes and never had the problems you describe.

    As you've exprienced this with a number of different cameras it makes me think that user error could be the problem, maybe the paper is slipping a bit on the takeup reel after you've put the insert into the back?
     
  11. iamzip

    iamzip Member

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    I have not run very many rolls through, but my m645 doesn't seem to have this problem.
     
  12. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member

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    I've used a few older 120 cameras (including the Mamyia 645) and not had the problem that you mention, but i do know with some RFH holders if you start the roll off with film laced into the take-up reel incorrectly (such as going over the spool instead of under) the initial spacing, if not all the spacing, can be off.
     
  13. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Is there any chance that you are mistaken about where the start mark line up indicator is on your inserts?

    All of my 120 cameras line up properly (Mamiya 645, Mamiya C330/C220, Koni-Omega) but it is really hard to see the indicator on the Koni-Omega backs. I have more than once lost track of the indicator :smile:.

    On the 645 inserts, the start mark is on the tab that holds the end of the film spool. You've probably already done this, but here is a link to the manual for the 1000s - see page 24/25:

    http://www.mamiya.com/assets/pdfs/645/M645_1000S_v4.pdf

    Matt
     
  14. domaz

    domaz Member

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    Even with my battered Pentax 6x7 all I have to do is line up the Start mark and it works. It never stops winding correctly at the end of a roll, but that's another story.
     
  15. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    No problem with Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Adox or Rollei in Horseman 6x9 and Linhof 6x9 backs.
     
  16. Curt

    Curt Subscriber

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    Never a problem with my roll film cameras and backs, too many to mention, I line up the marks with arrows and have used a wide variety of films and manufacturers.
     
  17. white.elephant

    white.elephant Member

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    Uhh, I've never had an issue with my Mamiya 645.
     
  18. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Thanks for the info.

    I tried the Horseman back with Fuji NPS. No lost frames, but the spacing was uneven on a few of them. Next I will try Ilford.
     
  19. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    I don't think the problem or difference lies with the films, most likely to be the backs.
     
  20. mikebarger

    mikebarger Member

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    I have a very old and worn Omega Rapid back I start past the red dot a little to fix spacing between frame one and two. Not a film issue, as I don't have to do it with my other two backs, but this one really needs a CLA.

    Mike
     
  21. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    I would think so too, but for some reason I used to lose more off the front of Ilford films than Fuji ones. About half a frame with Ilford versus just the edge for Fuji.
     
  22. archphoto

    archphoto Member

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    Does this sound like an adjustment problem ?

    I have one back for my Rollei SL66 that spaces the frames so close that I get 13 shots of 6x6 on a 120 roll......
    That back needs some CLA.... and NO it is not on the "220 setting" ! The transport knob pops out after frame 12.
    Think I'm gona leave it though.

    Peter