DS-12 stock?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by skahde, Sep 16, 2004.

  1. skahde

    skahde Member

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    I'm about to try Ryuji Suzuki's formula for DS12 (http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/film-dev-recommend.html). Unfortunately he does not give a recommendation for stock solutions of DS-12. Weighing in such small amounts to make one-shot solutions evere time I need them sounds a bit inconvenient.

    What do you think? Does it sound reasonable to make up a tenfold concentrated stock or would this be overdoing it? Should I stick with fivefold? Any additional precautions?

    thanks in advance

    Stefan
     
  2. psvensson

    psvensson Member

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    Speaking from limited experience, I would say tenfold concentrate should work, but more will be tough because of the sulfite. Raising the mixing temp. to 35C is probably a good idea. You could probably e-mail Ryuji himself - his address is on the web site.
     
  3. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I never weigh less than a gram of anything on my .01gr Acculab.
    I would make a fivefold stock useing one gram metol. That will
    leave you with 1/2 liter. That would do me five rolls of 120 at
    1/2 liter/roll.

    I seem to recall that sulfite is not all that soluable. I've doubts 50gr
    of it will fit into 1/4 liter. Never raise the temperature to dissolve unless
    you know that the amount dissolved will remain in solution after it has
    cooled and perhaps cooled for some time.

    BTW, have you any idea why the triethanolamine? Also what is the
    DS-2 he speaks of and do you know where the formula might be?

    DS-12 is likely very similar to FX-1. If so it will also make a good paper
    developer. Dan
     
  4. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Dan, take a look in the Chemistry Recipes section. I have mixed up concentrated TEA (as the solvent) versions of Suzuki's DS-14 (Phenidone/Ascorbic Acid) and DS-15 (Metol/Ascorbic Acid). They are paper developers, but at high dilutions they should be pretty close to Xtol (or Gainer's PC-TEA). I am in the process of testing them.

    I avoided the sulfite solubility problem by adding the sulfite, carbonate and KBr to the water used to prepare the working developer. Adding the carbonate may not have been necessary - but I don't see how it can hurt.

    BTW, I had no difficulty at all dissolving 6 grams of Metol in 350ml of TEA at 240 F.
     
  5. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    A table of solubilities that I copied from the web a couple of years ago said 313g sodium sulphite will dissolve in 1Litre of water at around room temp. I haven't tested that, but I keep a 200g/L solution as a stock solution for rinse aid.
     
  6. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    That sounds about right for solubility of sodium sulfite in water.

    In alcohols, glycols and triethanolamine (TEA) it is only slightly soluble.
     
  7. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    A few odds and ends:

    I'm quite sure DS this and that are Suzuki formulas.

    At www.pofig.com you will find the formula for DS-2. Metol, ascorbic
    acid, and sulfite are as with DS-12.

    There is a .2 gram complexing agent in DS-12 as well as triethanolamine.
    I think Mr. Suzuki is throwing us a curve with that one as he is using
    it as an alkali. He uses a bicarbonate/carbonate combination in DS-2.

    As for the solubility of sodium sulfite; in my work I may have bumped
    up against the "practical solubility in H2O" of 150 grams/liter mentioned
    at www.genchemcorp.com. Otherwise the amount soluble varies. With
    time 200 grams will likely fit in one liter making for a ten-fold. Dan
     
  8. martin@jangowski.de

    martin@jangowski.de Member

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    I'm using DS-12 for several month now and think it gives excellent results with APX100 and the slower Efke films. I routinely dissolve 10x the amount of given chemistry in 900ml water at 40deg. Celcius, this works like a charm. After dissolving everything (I use a magnetic stirrer) I top it up to 1l and use 25ml per film + 225ml water. Stored at room temperature, I had no precipate yet.

    On my website http://www.jangowski.de/sensitometry/ I have several test results with DS-12 used like that. To get maximum sharpness, I made all these tests with 30s agitation first and 10s every two minutes after that. However, being lazy, I recently tried DS-12 in my ATL and found that the results with APX100 are essentially identical with about 20% less time. With 6x6 enlarged to 30x30cm, the sharpness seems identical, no real need for manual work ;-)

    Martin
     
  9. skahde

    skahde Member

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    Thanks so far to everyone who responded!

    "However, being lazy, I recently tried DS-12 in my ATL and found that the results with APX100 are essentially identical with about 20% less time. With 6x6 enlarged to 30x30cm, the sharpness seems identical, no real need for manual"

    Martin, do I understand this one correctly: http://www.jangowski.de/sensitometry/APX100.jpg
    At 24°C you get less speed/lowered shaddow density as compared to 20°C. This would be very interesting as I started to optimize everything for the higher temperature which is far easier to maintain in the warmer half of the year.

    Maybe I shouldn't do that...

    regards

    Stefan
     
  10. martin@jangowski.de

    martin@jangowski.de Member

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    The third curve with 24deg. was made with DS-10, a developer obviously not very suited to APX100. I use DS-10 1+1 at 24deg. to keep the times reasonable.

    Martin
     
  11. skahde

    skahde Member

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    Martin,

    herzlichen Dank! This will save me a lot testing as I intended to try APX with DS-10 as well.

    Viele Grüße

    Stefan
     
  12. martin@jangowski.de

    martin@jangowski.de Member

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    Film tested by me that gave excellent results with DS-10 are the Deltas, Acros, 400TX and 3200TX. I only made sensitometric tests with FP4+, but these look good, too. APX100, Efke 100 and Lucky 100 and 400 didn't work well.

    I'm looking for a fine grain developer for the APX. I just made a test batch of "Mycrodol" (5g Metol, 100g Sodiumsulfite, 33g Sodiumchloride, 1g Boric acid per liter) and initial results look very promising.

    Martin
     
  13. Ryuji

    Ryuji Member

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    DS-2 is as follows:

    metol 0.4g
    ascorbic acid 1.0g
    sodium carbonate 4.0g
    sodium bicarbonate 1.0g
    sodium sulfite 20g
    water to make 1.0 liter (target pH = 9.8)

    I would mix this immediately before use. It keeps reasonably as a 5x concentrate but for that purpose DS-12 is much better.

    For DS-12, you can make concentrate and it'll keep for some months.

    The reason why I started using salicylic acid and triethanolamine a few years ago is described in archive of old pure-silver list. They are an attempt to solve the problem reported about ascorbate developers, most frequently XTOL, such as sudden failure problems.
     
  14. Ryuji

    Ryuji Member

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    DS-14, 15 and XTOL are very different developers even if you dilute them. The target pH, bromide concentration, salt concentration, etc. are very different.

    I don't know about PC-TEA, which is not pH buffered. But none of these DS- developers is similar to PC-TEA. Nor is XTOL similar to PC-TEA.
     
  15. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I've recently tried DS-12 and so far it seems pretty good. I was wondering if there's any news to report from attempts to make a more concentrated DS-12 stock.
     
  16. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Here are 3 concentrated Ascorbic Acid developers that work quite well. The same procedure should work for making a concentrated, long shelf life stock solution of DS-12. Just mix the appropriate amounts of sulfite and any additional alkali into the working solution water and then add the concentrate.

    Metol/Ascorbic Acid/TEA concentrated film developer
    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=41

    Phenidone/Ascorbic Acid/TEA concentrated paper developer and Metol/Ascorbic Acid/TEA concentrated paper developer

    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=20