Dupont R-surface?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by maxbloom, Dec 9, 2007.

  1. maxbloom

    maxbloom Member

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    So I just landed some Velour Black R-2. I'll cross the fog-bridge when I get to it. Anyway, I don't have a clue about the surface though. I guess I'll just have to look at it under safelight. I'm a little confused by the letter code. Unblinkingeye's catalog of antique papers lists all Velour Black as having a canvas surface but they don't list any letter designations. I've seen Velour in surfaces, A, T, and R. The article lists Azo R as a linen surface, and all of the other Kodak R's as tweed surfaces. I don't see any letter designations for Dupont papers. I was wondering if you guys have any idea what kind of surface this is.

    Thanks.

    Edit: I guess I might as well ask the fog question now, as my only one is quite simple. How high a concentration of benzotriazole/KI/KBr in total solution can I have before I too seriously inhibit the developer? That is, does something like an amidol recipe require an excess of anti-fog for this application, and if so, could someone give me a ball-park figure for how much extra anti-fog reagent(s) I can/should try adding.
     
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  2. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    Your anti-fog requirement will totally depend on the age-fog levels of the paper. You just have to ad little bits of anti-fog to the developer and try a test strip, and add more until you get acceptable (to you) levels of fog, or lack of fog. Adding anti-fog will make your paper less sensitive to exposure to the image under the enlarger..you will have to increase exposure.
     
  3. maxbloom

    maxbloom Member

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    Thanks. No thoughts on the surface?
     
  4. maxbloom

    maxbloom Member

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    Oh come on people! If nobody here has a clue about this paper then I am SOL.
     
  5. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    Dupont made papers that most people who used them, remember them very fondly. Unfortunately, most of us (and I am beyond middle age at 57), started darkroom work after DuPont quit making paper, so there will be very very few of us that have any first hand experiences to relate. The oldest papers I remember were some Ansco papers I printed on in the late 1960's. Perhaps DuPont paper was still around, but there was no local photo store that carried it. I was only able to get Kodak, Ansco, Agfa and Luminos during that time period. I used them all. The letter "R" usually means "some" kind of texture, but unless you can find some vintage literature, you will never know "exactly" what it means. I really don't see what the fuss is about. You got some old possibly nice paper. Go into the darkroom and play around with it. If you can get some good prints, great!! If not, then chalk it up to learning.

    If you want chemical recommendations, use Kodak Dektol, Kodak Indicator stop bath, or just a weak acetic acid stop bath, and Kodak fix, or Kodak Rapid Fix. All these chemicals were standard back in the day your paper was made, and your paper was designed to work well with such chemicals. If you get age-fog..add Benzotriazole or Edwal Liquid Orthazite (a benzotriazole based anti-fog) to the developer in increments until you like the results.

    As far as the texture of the paper. Sacrifice a sheet to the light, and look at it. Compare it to other known paper surfaces and it should be readily obvious what type of texture (if any) it is.
     
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  6. Kino

    Kino Member

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    I have a box of 20 x 24 Dupont! Haven't had the courage to open it yet...
     
  7. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    The couple of boxes vintage Dupont paper I found on the internet were all fogged beyond usefulness. You may want to cut a sheet into strips and develop unexposed in Dektol 1:2 1:3 and even 1:4 with an antifog agent to see how much base fog you have.
     
  8. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    I'm nearly a geezer and I never saw any Dupont paper, either. You ask about an amidol recipe - you might want to look at Michael A. Smith's enlarging amidol formula. It has extra restrainer. To keep down the yellowing of Kentona and to get the print color I wanted, I added even more KBr. So, my conclusion is that you can add a good bit of restrainer to a good amidol formula. I had to make test strips, so I guess you'll have to do the same.
    juan
     
  9. MarkS

    MarkS Member

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    DuPont stopped making b/w photo paper around 1972 or so, so your paper is minimally 35 years old... best of luck!
     
  10. Charles Webb

    Charles Webb Member

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    Dupont R-2 is a glossy surface and usually single weight.
    In my opinion it is the finest glossy paper ever made. I have not in the past 50 years found anything even close enough to compare it with. This opinion is based on the use of many thousands of sheets of it. I sure do miss it! I used Dektol 1part to 2 parts water 68 degrees. Indicator Stop bath and Kodak fixer diluted 1 to 2.

    Charlie...................................
     
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  11. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    From the Wards 1954 Photographic Catalog
    Velour
    DL Velvet White
    Y White Silk
    B Semi Matte
    T Glossy White

    Varigam
    R Clossy White single weight
    A White Semi Matte Single weight
    Y Cream White Double Weight
    DL Velvet Grain White Luster double weight

    25 sheets 8X10 R cost $1.90, in 2007 dollars about ?

    25 sheets of Kodabromide 8X10 cost $1.99.

    Any one use Halobome?
     
  12. Charles Webb

    Charles Webb Member

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    Hmmm Paul, nice listing, however Dupont Velour Black R2, R3 etc. was not Varigam. Varigam was a variable contrast paper that used filters exactly like Polycontrast from Kodak. The numbers R2, R3 etc. indicate that it is a fixed contrast paper.


    Charlie................................
     
  13. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    From 1954, the numbers and letters may have changed over the years, you are right Velour was a fixed grade paper the catalog states that you needed to order by contast grade, Wards sold grade 2 and 3.

    Varigram is listed as variable contast paper the filters were listed at $4.75.

    Velour glossy was T, Varigram glossy was R. I have no idea why DuPont did not use the same catalog system like Kodak did, F was glossy across textures.
     
  14. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    [

    25 sheets 8X10 R cost $1.90, in 2007 dollars about ?

    $14.76 in 2007, Wards listed a Contax for $440 or $3879.80 in 2007 dollars.
     
  15. maxbloom

    maxbloom Member

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    Thanks so much for this. I'll be sure to post results if it isn't fogged to hell.
     
  16. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    I forgot to mention that if you are printing on Varigram, Dupont's contrast filters are somewhat differnt from modern filters, the grade 9 and 10 for grade 4 are almost blue and very dense. I dont know how modern filters will work with Varigram. I have a set of Dupont filters, only just retired, that work fine on modern paper in the lower grades but #9 and 10 are useless.
     
  17. Charles Webb

    Charles Webb Member

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    Paul,
    I am afraid I still disagree with the Wards catalog. The Dupont Velour Black paper came in a red/orange box first, then later the color was changed to green. Each box carried a black and white label clearly marked with
    R2 or R3. A "T" was never part of the label of the thousands of boxes of D V B I purchased over a 30+ year period.

    I am sure I have prints stored in many of those old boxes, I'll try to locate one and post a pic. Dupont did not have nearly as good quality control as Kodak one emulsion number at times did not exactly match another.
    To circumvent any variation I purchased a 5 thousand sheets at a time all with the same emulsion numbers. The color and tone never varied, but the speed did from batch to batch. If my dealer could not supply the total amount I needed, I was at times forced to buy less untill another run was available. I never even tried the Varigam papers mostly because I never needed a veriable contrast paper, The same with Polycontrast.


    Charlie......................................
     
  18. Jim Noel

    Jim Noel Member

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    I guess at 78 I am a geezer. I loved Velour Black. As I remember, "R" designated a glossy surface and I spent a lot of time keeping my chrome plates clean so the paper would gloss smoothly without spots.
    I still like DuPont papers and have a nearly full box of 500 sheets of Varigam which requires only minute amounts of benzotriazole to purify the whites. I often use it when I have negative with blown out highlights because the paper is essentially pre-flashed.
    Jim
     
  19. maxbloom

    maxbloom Member

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    It appears that Paul is correct. See here:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...em=300178400963&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI
     
  20. Charles Webb

    Charles Webb Member

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    Maxbloom,
    The proof is in the photograph it did exist. In more than 30 years using thousands of sheets of DVB I never saw a blue package used for continous tone photographs. But then again, there are lots of things I haven't seen.
    I will send you a photograph of the old boxes I have as soon as I can get pic's of them. Don't have one of them electronic cameras so will have to do it the old fashoned way. What I can guarantee is the Dupont Velour Black that I used was not varigam and most deffinitely was R not T. When you open the package you have be sure to let us know what surface it is. Have fun! BTW, one of the main reasons I used and loved the R surface was due to the wonderful gloss finish you could achieve when Ferotyping them.

    Charlie..................................