Eastman Double - X? What can it bring to the table?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by hoffy, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. hoffy

    hoffy Member

    Messages:
    2,333
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Location:
    Adelaide, Au
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    After reading the post http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1364621 by Mustafa, I have to admit, I am a tad bit curious about Eastman 5222 Double-X 35mm film.

    What I really would like to know is exactly what does it bring to the table? If I use this, will all my shots look like they come from Schindler's List? Who uses it here and is it worth the hassle obtaining and shooting through the relatively long lengths of the film?

    Cheers
     
  2. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

    Messages:
    2,129
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Location:
    NYC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It has an old timey look and feel too it. The tones are quite nice shot at 100-200 speed. I personally like it best in rodinal and d76. I do not like the look of it pushed, even slightly to 400, but there are many who shoot it at this speed.

    For a student photographer, you just cannot beat the price if you bulk load plus the 30% off kodak educational discount if you are in the USA (must be student and fax order with school purchasing order).

    Its good stuff, a bit of a pain with the long rolls, but it is unique because of this, and the history behind it aswell. Also since its cine film, I have no worries cranking it through a trigger winder, or powerful motordrive. It also dries flat.

    I have been working through about 1000ft of this myself. I have given away a number of these rolls to friends for them to try. Maybe if you can find someone where you are, you can shoot a roll and see if your up to taking that path. 400ft = ~80 rolls, which is very manageable and not that much actually. 1000ft = ~200 rolls which will keep you in stock for a bit.

    I am probably going to take a break from it for awhile, and switch back to my last rolls of agfapan 250, which is just an awesome cine film stock. but after my last 30 rolls i have left, that will be the end of that. =[

    Also there is a very long and continually running thread on it on the rff.
     
  3. hoffy

    hoffy Member

    Messages:
    2,333
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Location:
    Adelaide, Au
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Cheers for that - I have to admit that from the few examples I have seen on the net, it does have a certain feel and look to it.

    Any Aussies shooting it? I'd be curious to try out a roll.
     
  4. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

    Messages:
    9,081
    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Location:
    Ryde, Isle o
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I was given five rolls of this and I have just used the last roll. It has taken all five rolls to work out the development. Using the times stated on the Project Double X website for Microphen, I got very dense negatives initially when using it at EI 400.

    I have since reduced the development time until I got it how I liked it. I am now considering if I should buy a bulk roll. unfortunately, I gave away my film loader last year!


    Steve.
     
  5. mhanc

    mhanc Member

    Messages:
    274
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Location:
    NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I too am curious about this film. Can't say I am wild about it from the examples I have seen elsewhere. Anyone have any shots with XX to post here? [EI and dev info would be useful]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2012
  6. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,574
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Hello again and I am happy one of my posts is useful.

    Movie films ... What can I say more , do you think a director invests 250 million dollars to a movie leaves his movie to a chance ? Movie films might be most heavily researched films on earth. If it is good for Cinema , it must be good for your photography , thats basic.

    There are too many old timers used these films and post their positive opinions somewhere lost in the 1 million posts.

    My neighbor is a military aerial photographer and he had been used movie films many years ago. He says , sometimes, some indian attacking the white guys shots comes off from the developer :smile:

    If you are lucky , you can learn from a couple indian moves , we call it kamasutra , google it :smile:

    6 dollar for tri x , 7 dollar for cigarette or you select the best tobacco and buy it from some folks and your roll cost 50 cent. Same happens at film business.

    Intelligent people makes intelligent moves and protects their families money.

    Umut
     
  7. Scandium

    Scandium Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Location:
    USA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Eastman Double-X Examples

    Double-X is a cinema negative film that is expected to be printed through several generations before it goes to the final theater print. It has lower inherent contrast than still films to offset the higher contrast of the release print positive film as well as the contrast gained by each printing generation. In my experience, it captures more shadow detail with exceptional mid-tones. It is an older style film that has a different grain appearance when compared with modern films like NeoPan 400, Tri-X, or HP-5.

    Most of the time I rate it at EI 250 and use Microdol 1+1 or 1+3. It also produces fine results at EI 400 in Ilford DD-X.

    Here are some examples:

    EI 250 in Microdol 1+1
    http://gascherb.zenfolio.com/arcata/h1e9fd4b#h1e9fd4b

    EI 400 in Ilford DD-X 1+4
    http://gascherb.zenfolio.com/arcata/h2626f9d0#h2626f9d0

    EI 250 in Microdol 1+1
    http://gascherb.zenfolio.com/crossroads/heee51f3#heee51f3

    EI 250 in Microdol 1+3
    http://gascherb.zenfolio.com/tanzania/h2cd2cea7#h2cd2cea7

    EI 250 in Microdol 1+1
    http://gascherb.zenfolio.com/napoli/h14201884#h14201884
    All the images in the Naples gallery are Double-X in Microdol

    All the B&W images in the Pompei gallery are Double-X in Microdol 1+1
    http://gascherb.zenfolio.com/pompei

    Microdol 1+1 softens the grain and makes for better scans with my equipment. DD-X provides a bit more speed, but the grain becomes more prominent.


    Double-X is may favorite general-purpose film. It captures a beautiful grey scale and retains detail in both the shadows and highlights, even with scenes that contain a wide brightness range.

    Glenn
     
  8. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,574
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Glenn ,

    Thank you sharing very critical information , this will work for all others and myself.

    First picture is the greatest one , I prefer the microdol 1+1. First picture tones have excellent dark grey space and is the best . What was your lens for that picture ?

    Redwoods , best tone wood for bass guitars with poplar and mahagony. For last 30 years , they banned for use these old thick diameter redwoods in US and Fender is growing his own woods and cut when they are younger. I saw they assemble a Fender Mexico Jazz Bass body out of 8 thin sections of that wood , not solid. Thats why solid ones are super expensive.

    Umut
     
  9. limnidytis

    limnidytis Subscriber

    Messages:
    58
    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Location:
    Iowa
    Shooter:
    35mm
  10. Brian Legge

    Brian Legge Member

    Messages:
    543
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Location:
    Bothell, WA
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
  11. PhotoJim

    PhotoJim Member

    Messages:
    2,223
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Regina, SK,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm still working on my first 400' can of it but I really like it. I shoot it at EI 250 and develop it in D-76 1:1 for now. Results are good - very printable. I have no issues with contrast.

    I need to start experimenting with it in PMK - I have a feeling it will work very well in pyrogallol. I just haven't found the time yet.
     
  12. frobozz

    frobozz Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,362
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    Mundelein, I
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I find Double-X to be a tad on the grainy side but very nice tones. I too find it develops very dense negatives when shooting at 250 and developing according to the massive dev chart, so I switched to metering it at 400 to compensate a bit. I haven't tried it with a bunch of different developers but that's definitely on my list when I get some time.

    I submitted a suggestion to Kodak on their cinema website that they sell it online in 100' rolls and pointed out that ORWO is doing this already. Never heard back, and haven't seen it show up in 100' rolls yet. I sold off some of my excess Double-X a while back and even after trying to compensate for my costs of materials to get it into 100' bags and cans (thus making it far more expensive per foot than just ordering a 400' can from Kodak) I ran out of spare film long before I ran out of people willing to buy it from me. I think Kodak should definitely reconsider not offering it in 100' rolls. Those could be used by both filmmakers (in Eyemo cameras, etc.) and still photographers.

    Here are the links to the ORWO products (one slower, one faster than the official ISO of Double-X)

    http://www.orwona.com/orwo-n74-plus-negative-film-asa-400-35mm-100-ft/

    http://www.orwona.com/orwo-un54-universal-negtive-film-100-asa-35mm-400ft/

    Interestingly they are currently sold out of both of those in 100' lengths. Sounds like a market with some demand, to me!

    Duncan
     
  13. baachitraka

    baachitraka Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,311
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2011
    Location:
    Bremen, Germany.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Salam,

    How do you compare with Orwo UN54? Here, they are selling 100f roll for EUR 30.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. SkipA

    SkipA Member

    Messages:
    604
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Location:
    127.0.0.1
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Is ordering direct from Kodak the best way to obtain Eastman Double X? I'd like to give it a try. 400 feet is more than "a try" but what the heck.
     
  16. frobozz

    frobozz Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,362
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    Mundelein, I
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Yes, absolutely. Quick easy, fresh from the manufacturer. For those in the US here is the link:

    http://store.kodak.com/store/ekcons...k_and_White_Negative_Film/categoryID.55766300

    400' is $154.84 as of this writing.

    If you're not in the US, just call your country's main number for Kodak. They should ship it to anyone, it's just easier in the US over the internet.

    Duncan
     
  17. SkipA

    SkipA Member

    Messages:
    604
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Location:
    127.0.0.1
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thank you for the link, Duncan.
     
  18. Scandium

    Scandium Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Location:
    USA
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Umut,
    The first three pictures were shot with a Voigtlander 15mm M-mount lens. The redwood was scanned as a color slide and inverted to capture as much shadow detail as possible. The sepia tone is a side-effect.

    Glenn
     
  19. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

    Messages:
    6,239
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Actuallly if you look at Kodak's published diffuse RMS granularity values for Double-X and Tri-X Professional, the Double-X is finer grained RMS granularity 14 (very fine) vs 16 (fine).

    I shoot it at an EI of 400 and develop it in either Rodinal or HC-110 (my preferred developer) diluted 1+49 at 21 C. Times are 7.5 min and 8.5 min respectively. It is imporatant not to overexpose films as granularity will suffer.

    Beautiful film!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2012
  20. pbromaghin

    pbromaghin Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,079
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Location:
    Castle Rock,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    $.045/shot!
     
  21. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Location:
    Ex Oz, now USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format


    Hoffy,

    I have purchased a lot of 16mm film from the US website. My brother orders it, and then on ships it to me. KodakFrom past orders of 2x 400' cans of 16mm the postage is US$25 USPS airmail.

    If you are interested in trying some I'd go halves with you on a 400' can.
     
  22. hoffy

    hoffy Member

    Messages:
    2,333
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Location:
    Adelaide, Au
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    200ft Hey Andy! That would take me a while to get through! Are you able to break it up easily? I am very curious but was thinking maybe a couple of rolls first! I might put a note in the Aussie section to see if anyone is interested. I did notice that Athril bought some earlier in the year - I wonder if he would be up for it again.

    Now, as we mention the ORWO products, how do they compare?
     
  23. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Location:
    Ex Oz, now USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hoffy, I can't comment on how it compares to ORWO as have not used Double X. I do have ORWO UN54 which I could send you a couple of 135-36 rolls.

    I have been interested in trying the Double X but was not wanting another 400ft to use on my own (same for Orwo N74). 200ft I'd get through with all of my reversal testing I do.

    I can spool off the 400' into 100' lengths without to much trouble and I would bag and can it as well before sending over.
     
  24. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

    Messages:
    2,129
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Location:
    NYC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Spooling down from a big roll is a wrist killer. Your forearms will be aching. I used to spool the cassettes in the bathroom on a stool at night. my arms outstretched to both sides is perfect for 36 exposures plus leader. Tape was already applied to spools which were stuck on a rail, which the film was then applied and rerolled in with the help of long blunt tweezers which helped reroll them in very quickly. its funny how adept you can get quickly after just a few rolls, my scissor cuts became perfectly straight, and my taping to the little bit of leader from discarded cassettes became perfectly aligned (which I checked after when developing).

    Its a bit to hot to do that now since i dont have central air, but thats a good way to do it if you dont have a bulk loader.
     
  25. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,004
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Location:
    Ex Oz, now USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I can't imagine spooling down 400' like that.


    I have a large platten and small platten which fit on a film winder, so I wind from large to small and when small is full, I cut. Works for both 35mm and 16mm. The 100ft lengths of 35mm I put into a bulk loader and fill cassettes normally. I take care not to generate any static when spooling down.
     
  26. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

    Messages:
    4,574
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Location:
    İstanbul
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    200 ft Eastman 5222 costs 30 dollars

    The below link belongs to Vic Alexander , is a great guy , located in Hollywood and sells 200 ft 5222 film for 30 dollars
    I kept telling to research internet and some interested guys want to pay 400 ft 180 dollars
    This guy sells 3 times cheaper than the Kodak , 45 cents for 36 exposure 5222.
    Additionally , you can order down to 100 feet for first try

    http://www.releasing.net/rawstock/

    I dont use ORWO , I disliked their film.

    Umut