Ebay dispute can I damage a Jobo CPE2 by running the motor without water in the tank?

Discussion in 'Darkroom Equipment' started by 10speeduk, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. 10speeduk

    10speeduk Member

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    Hi all

    I bought a Jobo CPE2 on ebay:

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221146660973?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

    When it arrived the spindle was not working so the drum would not change direction. I made a video to show the seller:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHKwUzbzWBg&feature=plcp

    As it was listed to be in perfect working order, I have asked the seller for a refund.

    This is his response:

    Hi Paul,

    I was suspicious of the video you sent yesterday of you using the machine that I sold to you.
    It is written in big bold letters in the manual, DO NOT TURN ON THE UNIT WITHOUT WATER. The video you sent clearly show running it with no water. You will have destroyed
    beyond repair the heaters thermostat. I cant repair this and no parts are available. With regards to the spindle I was
    under the illusion that I might have made a mistake with the machine but clearly you did not read the manual at all that
    was sent with the item.

    The video you sent confirms that you used the unit without water so regardless of anything you have now damaged the item beyond repair. I cant and won't accept this back for a refund Paul. I am not a shop nor a mug.

    Under no circumstances will I take the unit back for a full refund now that you have damaged it as proven by your very own video!

    You should have read the manual before operating the machine.

    To quote directly from the online Manual ( The same as sent to you )

    "Note: Text in this format is informative. It contains additional details to explain the basic information presented.

    Caution: Text in this format presents important procedural information. Failure to follow these instructions could adversely affect the processing of your film or paper.

    WARNING: Text in this format presents critical information. Possible damage to your equipment or personal injury could result from not following these instructions!

    Here is the link to the manual: http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_an...ctions_manual_cpe-2_plus_01.htm#The Processor

    Here is the link to the video you sent, showing you using the machine with no water: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHKwUzbzWBg&list=HL1352146238&feature=mh_lolz

    I have downloaded a copy of you video to my home computer.

    You cant use equipment like this without reading the manual. An expenisive lesson and one I am not willing to pay

    [FONT=arial, sans-serif]- photograpicswapshop
    [/FONT]
    Is this likely to be true? I did not run the motor for an extended period, and the thermostat was not turned on at any time.

    I get the feeling that the seller is trying to pull a fast one.

    Any advice would be helpful as I have opened a dispute on paypal.

    Thanks
    :sad:
    Paul
     
  2. fotch

    fotch Member

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    It looks like the seller is right, the water is needed to keep the heater from overheating.
     
  3. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    The seller is wrong. In any case, if the heater would have over heated you would have noticed as the machine would have burned wires which you would have smelled and noticed, as the motor would not have turned any more.
    In any case it is absolutely safe to run a CPE2 with the temp dial down all the way (you can hear the thermostat clicking on and of when you turn the dial, the point will change with ambient temp, but as long as it is beyond the position in which it clicks off, it is OFF...).

    From your video, it seems as though the reversal arm (three fingered white plastic bit) is out of position. As far as i can see the drum revered direction as soon as you manually moved the reverse arm and clicked the micro switch.

    This is very easy to remedy - the first thing to check is to tighten the screw of the revereser, so that it takes a bit more then light finger pressure to move (do not over tighten so it does not move at all). Then re position it with the middle prong level\horizintal, and run the motor, this should cure your problem. You might need to start with one of the other two prongs level if that does not work.

    If all three positions did not help after re tightening the screw you will need to re position the reverser in relation to the micro switch actuator on the inside of the unit (this takes 1-2 minutes and involves removing and installing 6 screws). But check the first step and report back. I will help further if needed.

    Good luck!

    Pay no attention to Ebay sellers with bad attitude, you are in the right, and in any case your machine is 100% fine :smile:
     
  4. 10speeduk

    10speeduk Member

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    Thanks all. I have raised a Paypal dispute so I will let them decide. I don't want to keep this machine without it arriving working. I just want to process my film!!! I should have checked the feedback before buying. 2 transactions suggests a new seller or at least a new username. So much for returns accepted lol!
     
  5. LJH

    LJH Member

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    There is a circuit breaker on some models.

    To reset it, have a look on the far left of the machine (looking at it front on). From memory, you need to poke something through a hole to press a small button. I'd suggest Googling it. Mind you, there is a chance that you've fried it and this will be moot.

    I agree with the Seller, though - never run one dry with the heater on.
     
  6. Paul Green

    Paul Green Member

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    Please read Kriffartida's post it is an easy fix. Put some water into the unit and switch it on again and see if the heater heats to the set temperature.

    If that's ok tighten the screw on the 3 pronged arm, you may have to readjust it like you were doing in the video until you get the arm into the correct position.

    Pm me if you want to talk more in detail.
     
  7. antmar

    antmar Member

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    +1 that it is an easy fix. It happened to me after a year of use.
    Put some water in to check if the heating part is working properly and don't mind for the switch as it is very easy to fix it by your self. In the matter of fact this switch is called chicken leg and it is very easy to brake (yours is OK) so it is user replaceable...
     
  8. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    The CPE2 does not have a heater protection circuit, only the CPE2+ has that feature.
     
  9. EdoNork

    EdoNork Member

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    The CPE2 hasn't a circuit breaker. If it is switched on with out water AND with a high temperature selected it can be damaged and can't be repaired by the user.
    The CPE2 Plus has the temperature protection breaker (thermal overload sensor).
    If it has been switched on for a short time it can be fine. Just test it with water.

    The CPE2 has a little spindle with three "fingers" behind the rotor that senses the direction and changes it. It can be displaced, simply turn it half around and try the unit again (with water or the thermostat set to the lower temperature).
     
  10. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Bad luck. It is always disappointing to find an item faulty and buying from a seller who is only starting out so with little feedback can be risky but I suspect that we may have a case of two genuine parties( buyer and seller) who are unnecessarily suspicious of each others' actions

    Common belief is that the CPE2 should not be used without water and this is correct. However unless you ran it for quite some time I doubt if it has been ruined. Certainly the fault would have manifested itself within less than a minute - maybe in much less than a minute as the reverse turn occurs within a few seconds or not in your case so I don't think you have ruined it.

    If you got the CPE2 for the end bid price as hown on e-bay then this is fairly good value, given that the solution suggested by others works and I see no reason why it won't. Did you get the other bits and pieces shown as well?

    Hopefully this transaction will end satisfactorily.

    pentaxuser
     
  11. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    If that is all that is wrong with it you got a pretty good deal.
     
  12. lxdude

    lxdude Member

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    Numerous times I have bought items off ebay and elsewhere which required adjustments to get them to work properly or optimally. I don't consider needing an easily done adjustment to be the same as defective, because it's just sort of the nature of buying used. It could have even happened during shipping.
    If a quick adjustment solves the problem, why go to the trouble, time, and bad feelings of a dispute, along with sending the unit back and finding another if you prevail? If the problem can be readily solved, solve the problem and get on with doing what you bought it for.
     
  13. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    I have run my Jobo without water and the heater turned off.
     
  14. timparkin

    timparkin Member

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    You won't kill it by running it with the thermostat below ambient temperature, it shouldn't come on at all.

    As for the reverse switch - happy to get some photos of mine in action (yes, that's mine in the video he attached!) so you can work out how the reverse works..

    Tim
     
  15. Michael W

    Michael W Member

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    If you can follow the expert advice given in this thread and get it working then I would keep it. Seller does come across as a jerk so you can always leave bad feedback for him.
     
  16. lxdude

    lxdude Member

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    Also, didn't Jobo say parts are once again available?
     
  17. AgX

    AgX Member

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    About two years ago Jobo's German (Europe) service told me they had enough spares for all processors.
     
  18. RedSun

    RedSun Member

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    CPE2 is a small robust processor. You can turn it on for a short time to check the motor, no problem. But I won't turn on without water for any longer.

    My stance with the auction is that: after you receive the item and find any ANY problem, immediately report it to the seller with evidence. If you do anything with it, you void the default (unspoken) rules on warranty and return. Then the item becomes your property and the seller can refuse to take it back. In your case, your video is the clear evidence that you turned on the machine without water, which is against the Jobo instruction. The instruction manual clearly says "10) Never operate unit without water in bottom trough. Water level should be at least 5 inches above the bottom of the unit."

    From what you described, you should be able to adjust it to a good working condition. Spend some time and fix it by yourself.
     
  19. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    What's the status now? Thanks

    pentaxuser