ECN-2 Processing problem

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by mudfly9, Apr 7, 2014.

  1. mudfly9

    mudfly9 Member

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    Having had success with developing CineStill 800T in the homebrew recipe listed here, I've treated myself to a 400' roll of Vision3 500T. The first roll I developed, using a sodium carbonate remjet removal before developing, came out very dark with a barely discernible image. After remixing all the chemicals using distilled water, here's what I've found happens if I process unexposed film:


    • Sodium carbonate (20g/l) remjet removal, dev, bleach, fix, stab - This produces extremely dark film, edge marking almost invisible.
    • Dev, remjet removal, bleach, fix, stab - This produces completely clear (orange) film, as expected.

    Is there any reason why the sodium carbonate appears to be fogging the film? Kodak lists an alternative pre-bath that uses sodium bicarbonate as well as sodium carbonate, might this be the key? I'm going to try doing this tonight but thought I'd see whether anyone could shed any light on this.
     
  2. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Try washing after removal, to get the base/alkali out of the film.

    I usually use borax or sodium bicarbonate, and use very little of it at that.
     
  3. mudfly9

    mudfly9 Member

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    I washed it for about 30 mins after removing the remjet so that can't have been it. My girlfriend convinced me to have a night off from photography stuff so the test has been postponed!
     
  4. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Wash it mixed fresh? Or re-used solution? I'm wondering about possible contamination.
     
  5. Dr Croubie

    Dr Croubie Member

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    Have you tried dev/bleach/fix as normal, and then remjet removal afterwards?
    I haven't tried it (yet, still trying to get some cheap 800T), but I've read people just processing in normal C41 then 'wiping' the remjet off afterwards, would that approach not work with a Na2CO3 or NaHCO3 wash instead of wiping?
     
  6. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Subscriber

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    There's two problems, one is that if you wait to remove the RemJet till after, you end up contaminating the emulsion with more RemJet as it falls off the back between chemistry cycles, and two you contaminate those chemistries with bits of RemJet and then that carries over to the next round of development and it gets even worse with more contamination.

    So removing it first is the better move I would think.

    I don't know why it would cause any darkening of the film though, I've asked before and to my recollection PE said sodium bicarbonate shouldn't be causing any development issues, I can't recall why I was asking though, but I remember asking if the sodium bicarbonate could ruin the film and was told that it wouldn't.
     
  7. Dr Croubie

    Dr Croubie Member

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    The place I read about removing remjet after C41-dev was actually at Steve Huff Photo.
    Now that I've read it again he does say that 'it will ruin the chems' and that he uses 'waste lab chems', so he's probably just doing it one-shot and ditching it so doesn't worry about contamination. If only we could all get waste-chems to play with....

    Anyway, the only other option is Cinestill, which is removed pre-taking, which would add to halation (depending on whether that's actually what you want).
    So yeah, taking then removing remjet then developing certainly makes the most sense to me too now.

    Also, I just noticed Stone and Athiril said 'Sodium Bicarbonate' (NaHCO3), and the OP said Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3). Maybe just a slight confusion of chemicals could be leading to these results?
     
  8. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    My procedure for ECN: Never had any issue with remjet leftover crumbs or bits on the film. Some remjet will be removed during the presoak, and the remainder will come out with the developer.

    All procedures at 98 deg F, and using distilled water for Rinse. Tap water for final washing.

    Presoak the film for 2 minutes with agitation every 30 sec. then dump.
    Develop
    Rinse 4 times of 30 seconds each with continuous agitation.
    Blix.
    Wash.
     
  9. mudfly9

    mudfly9 Member

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    I'd heard of Borax, Sodium Carb and Sodium BiCarb being used for remjet removal and Kodak's alternative prewash is 58g carb and 19g bicarb. When conducting my own tests of chemical/agitation based removal I found the 15 min soak 'n shake with carb was by far the best, with the solution coming out very black.

    I've had the slight setback of a leaking Jobo (and a poor, dripped on dog) but I'll carry on testing tonight and perhaps not be so bold as to assume I can omit an ingredient from a Kodak formula!
     
  10. Xmas

    Xmas Member

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    When using stock dev I normally put it through a coffee filter/funnel after use to reduce frequency of film 'chips' from the mono cine I use. I don't do this with normal film.

    The film may come with stuck on chips...

    As I read it the ECN REM JET process is two stage a soften bath then a water knife or spounge removal the machines have anti carry over after steps.

    I don't want to try ECN film I have lots of C41 bulk. But I think Id 'want to' filter the Dev as I do with mono cine.

    Lastly I always shoot a film out the den window I use for test I've learnt that this necessary to avoid a problem in the next roll... last such a problem was Feb 14 duuuuua.

    But if the op can get good results without pre removal then filtering the solutions only needs three labeled jugs and a soft spounge wipe one side after.

    Or one shot the prebath... but maybe filter the dev.

    If a filter has black remjet residue you know you may have a problem like my mono cine... cause the remjet won't just be in the filter.
     
  11. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Remjet from experience doesn't ruin chemistry. You just need to filter your chemistry, which if you're running replenished you need to do anyway.


    If the film was so easily damaged from remjet particles floating in solution, a wet remjet bath the film passed through wouldn't work. Please see the Kodak document on motion picture processing, which shows processor design.

    If you agitate the hell out of the remjet softening bath with the film, and rinse/wash, you shouldn't have much remjet come off in other solutions during regular agitation anyway.
     
  12. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

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    Dr, If you're after cine film I've got some various lengths I could send you. Don't have 800t but do have 500t and various daylight speeds.
     
  13. VPooler

    VPooler Member

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    Okay, I have done the ECN2 process both with and without prewash. Without prewash (baking soda), the negatives are clearer and more familiar orange tint, but the development time must be adjusted to 5 minutes with fresh developer (ECN2 dev), add some 15 seconds for every roll processed and 30 seconds to a minute for 1 week of storage. I just pulled out two rolls, rubbed the remjet off under running water with smooth and slippery PVC rubber gloves and the negatives are okay. The developer keeps well in a well-sealed bottle if there is no air in, I mixed the dev one and a half week ago and didn't even filter it!