ECN 2 psuedo process

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by tiberiustibz, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    How might I process ECN2 without the chemistry if I don't want to send it out. What color developer does it use? Can ammonia be used to remove the remjet backing?
     
  2. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Ammonia cannot be used to remove the rem-jet backing.

    The process is posted here somewhere.

    PE
     
  3. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    Check this post for the ECN-II formula, assuming you're willing to mix it from scratch. If not, I've heard of people successfully using C-41 chemistry, but I've never done this myself, and I suspect there'd be color shifts and perhaps reduced color stability over the long haul.
     
  4. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    It uses the same CD as E6 film...
     
  5. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    Remjet Remover

    For Remjet removal, mix 1 teaspoon of Borax or Sodium Sulfite per gallon, then use as presoak at room temp for 1 minute. Rinse using two complete water changes then develop.

    I use Kodak Flexicolor C-41 developer at 85 degrees for 3 minutes.

    1 liter mix: 900mL water, 75mL part A, 12mL part B, 12mL part C.

    Use as One-Shot and will develop 4 rolls of 35mm at once in a Kindermann Tank.

    Fill and drain tank several times using tap water close to developer temp, This will remove any leftover traces of remjet and then bleach/fix as with any C-41 film.

    After film is hangiing to dry, fold a paper towel 3 times in half, then drag it down the front (non-emulsion) side of the film. This will remove any hints of remjet and your film will dry spot free.
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Just remember that motion picture color negative is built to have a contrast (gamma) of 0.50 and therefore is way too low for conventional color print materials. It is only truly compatible with motion picture print stock.

    PE
     
  7. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    ECN Contrast


    Sorry PE, I have to disagree. When I process the Kodak or Fuji movie stock I have in standard C-41, the contrast and color saturation is incredible. That is why I use a reduced developer temperature to reduce the harshness.

    As far as printing, yes, it does print using an odd filter pack to get "normal" tones on paper.
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I would not know about the results from C-41 other than to say that the dye hues would not be correct. Comparing CD3 and CD4 dyes, the CD4 dyes are generally shifted to longer wavelengths and are broader. They also have worse dye stability. Now, this is not so if the couplers are chosen to be specific to the given developing agent. So, CD4 films have different couplers designed to be "correct" with their own developing agent.

    The film is "coupler limited" to give this low contrast, so I would expect that there will be some limit you cannot exceed, and even what you are doing should give some crossover.

    You might try shooting a step wedge and then plotting the results to see what is going on there. You might be surprised.

    PE
     
  9. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    If this is relevant I'm shooting super 8 movie film which I will transfer using some digital camera with a magnifying glass and a cannibalized super 8 viewer. I plan to process it by winding it around a 3 inch PVC pipe with wire guides which I plan to assemble and stick in a larger enclosed pvc pipe. If I remove the remjet after a prebath it will be in the dark for every single one of the 50 feet blind with an old t shirt. As such I'm considering skipping the prebath and removing the remjet after the stop.

    So should I use the E6 CD3 color dev or the C41 dev which has CD4 but which I have about 10 gallons of?
     
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    You will get rem-jet carbon in the developer, and this will probably get into the gelatin and cause bad black defects in the image (if any). If you use the E6 color developer, it will cause severe fog.

    PE
     
  11. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    But the e6 kit color developer doesn't have the chemical fogger... it's just a CD3 developer, which is, at least, similar to the ECN2 developer. I would use it one shot with light agitation.
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Then go ahead and ignore my advice!

    E6 color developer contains ethylene diamine, which is a silver halide solvent! It also contains citrazinic acid which is a "colorless" coupler. It actually forms a soluable cyan dye which washes out of the film. Either of these will affect color negative development adversely.

    There are other ingredients that interfere with negative color development but assist reversal color development, but I think I have made my point.

    Oh, the pH of the ECN color developer is about 10.x whereas the E6 color developer is abou 11.x. I forget the actual decimal values but the first two digits should give you a small hint.

    PE
     
  13. Emulsion

    Emulsion Member

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    I spotted an interesting result where ECN-2 motion picture film was processed in C-41 chemistry.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonathanbowerbank/sets/72157614573399785/

    There is some reticulation but surely that would be caused by temperature issues rather than chemistry.

    Overall the results look very good IMHO.

    He used:
    "Tetenal C-41 kit from B&H and processed according to the supplied directions in a Paterson jobo tank."
    "Once the film had dried completely, I took a wet cloth and sihttp://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37036&hl=mply wiped off the rem-jet backing. "

    There is more written at:
    http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37036&hl=

    Cheers,
    Emulsion.
     
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  15. Aurum

    Aurum Member

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  16. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    For remjet backing I use sodium sulphite in water. I've given up on this process though.
     
  17. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    SD-49 is the listed developer:

    Kodak SD-49
    Color negative motion picture film developer for Process ECN-2

    Water (21 – 38C) 850 ml
    Kodak Anti-Calcium No. 4 2 ml
    Sodium sulfite (anh) 2 g
    Sodium bromide (anh) 1.2 g
    Sodium carbonate (anh) 25.6 g
    Sodium bicarbonate 2.7 g
    CD-3 4 g
    Kodak Antifoggant AF-2000 5 ml
    Water to make 1 l

    pH at 25C = 10.25; density = 1.029

    Develop 3 minutes at 41.1C (106F)

    PE's comments about contrast and stability should be taken seriously. If you are going to scan the negatives, motion picture film negative will probably work.
     
  18. alanrockwood

    alanrockwood Member

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    Photo-Therm gives instructions for developing ECN-2 film using C-41 chemicals in their processor.

    The Remjet coating is an issue. In a conventional C-41 process this might foul the solutions. However, Photo-Therm is a one-shot processor, so fouling due to the Remjet coating should not be much of an issue, at least not according to the Photo-Therm people.

    I don't know if the quality is any good. However, Photo Engineer consistently warns against developing ECN-2 film using C-41 chemistry, and he probably knows better than any of us.
     
  19. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    A few samples of ECN prints

    These are scanned 8x10s and the only adjustments are to match the print as close as possible. I've been working with ECN films (Kodak and Fuji) and come up with two different processes. One for high contrast and one for low contrast. The high contrast process uses the standard C-41 process at a slightly reduced temperature and standard times, and the low contrast process uses RA4 at normal temperature and a three minute develop time. Extended RA4 developing time will likely increase contrast, but I have not tried it yet. I have used: Fuji 8563 250iso daylight, Fuji 8592 500iso daylight, Fuji 8522 64isodaylight and Kodak 5201 64iso daylight.

    As explained in an another post, the remjet is no problem at all if you are using the developer as a one-shot. 11x14 prints show no hint of leftover or embedded remjet. Another interesting "feature" of ECN processed in C-41 is the ability to achieve incredible speeds. Starting with the Fuji 500d, I was able to achieve a calculated 64,000iso. The image is handheld, after midnight during a full moon. The color is off a bit and won't fully correct. Reds and blues are very muted while yellow and green is dominant. This image is handheld and looks almost like daylight but it's not.

    End result: ECN films can be had for about 10 cents a foot and in many different speeds, color and B&W. Short ends are always a bargain and easy to respool into a bulk loader. Experiment, and have fun.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Emulsion

    Emulsion Member

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    Cruzingoose those are great results! Congratulations.

    You mentioned that the C-41 was at a slightly lower temperature. What did you find worked best?

    Did you use a Tetanal or other kit? How many baths did you use?

    Thanks from,
    Emulsion
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2009
  21. alanrockwood

    alanrockwood Member

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    Could you push process the ECN-2 film in C-41 chemistry to get the contrast up to "normal" values for conventional print materials?

    If so, I assume that this might introduce a color shift. If so, could one make some adjustment, such as altered pH to re-balance the color shift?

    I am assuming single-shot processing here.

    Thanks.
     
  22. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    Unfortunately, your examples seem to demonstrate the problems. The lower contrast examples really lack contrast and color, and the colors are off a bit. The high contrast examples are very high contrast, bluish, and seem to have poor color tracking. But I agree with your last comment - experiment!
     
  23. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    I use Kodak Flexicolor. The mix is in an earilier post.
     
  24. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    I never said the process is perfect :wink: I like to experiment and with 1000' of assorted movie films to play with and plenty of chems its fun to play. The lower temp/longer develop time in C-41 and the RA4 developer methods are still a work in progress. There are times where these effects may be desirable, especially the ultra high iso speeds I am able to get for night shots. I'll eventually come up with better results, but I like what I see so far.
     
  25. bdilgard

    bdilgard Subscriber

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    I really like the effect on #2 & #5. I have tried some ideas that are floating around to use highly diluted C41 developer and stand or semi-stand development at room temp but the results have been terrible so far. I was hoping to make the chemicals use/misuse more economical this way.
     
  26. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    Thread hijack... Cheap chem thrills.

    Feel free to move this to the appropiate location.

    The least expensive chemical source is a minilab kit. A typical 10 liter kit is less than $30. Here is a breakdown of a few..... All processing is standard time and temperature for each minilab process. All are tested and proven.

    Champion RA4 Developer
    Water - 905ml
    Part A - 25ml
    Part B - 20ml
    Part C - 50ml


    Russel Neocolor C-41 Developer
    Water - 912ml
    Part A - 68ml
    Part B - 8ml
    Part C - 12ml


    Champion RA4 Blix

    Water - 660 ml
    Part A - 150 ml
    Part B - 190ml


    Kodak RA4 Developer

    Water - 900ml
    Part A- 40ml
    Part B- 20ml
    Part C- 40ml

    Fuji Hunt C-41

    Water 950ml
    Part A 57ml
    Part B 14ml
    Part C 14ml

    Russell RAP-4 (RA4)

    Water 900ml
    Part A 50ml
    Part B 20ml
    Part C 50ml

    Kodak RA4 Blix

    Water 750ml
    Part A 100ml
    Part B 150ml

    Kodak Flexicolor C-41

    Water 900ml
    Part A 75ml
    Part B 12.5ml (OK to round up )
    Part C 11.7ml (OK to round up)

    AGFA Filmbox #2 RA4 Blix

    Mix each component with 3 parts water.
    Makes 10 liters of fix, bleach, stabilizer.

    Champion C-41 Developer

    Water 900ml
    Part A 77ml
    Part B 9ml
    Part C 11ml

    Champion VR RA4 Developer

    Water 850ml
    Single Part Concentrate 150ml