Edwal Yellow and Blue toner - any experience?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by tkamiya, May 7, 2012.

  1. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I have both Yellow and Blue toners by Edwal on order. I cannot find ANY information online. I know - for blue toners, one will print a little lighter as the toner increases density by a little. Does anyone know if Yellow increases or decreases density?

    Does anyone have ANY link to information concerning these toners? Edwal does not appear to have any web representation and I only found material safety sheet on these items from a seller (Freestyle).
     
  2. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I'm actually surprised no one has used these....
     
  3. Ian C

    Ian C Member

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    This is a well-illustrated book on the use of Berg toners, the only toners covered in this book. It was produced with the cooperation of Berg, as it’s practically a manual of use for Berg toners.

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/403100-From-BandW-To-Creative-Color-by-Jerry-Davidson

    It’s modestly priced at $4.49.

    The Berg toner book is relevant because the Edwal color toners are quite similar to those by Berg.

    There are some comments about Edwal and Berg dye toners here:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/tl_toners.php
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2012
  4. eddie

    eddie Subscriber

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    If you want to pursue toning, Tim Rudman's book is a must.
     
  5. Katie

    Katie Subscriber

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    AND PRICEY!!!!!$$$
     
  6. Rick A

    Rick A Subscriber

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    I've used the Berg color toners and really don't care for the colors. They are more like dyes than tones. I suppose there would be times when coloring a print might look okay, just not for me. I prefer hand coloring prints with water colors or acrylics.
     
  7. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Thank you.

    Freestyle information appears to be not entirely correct though. The page says Berg and Edwals are dyes.... but blue Edwal, at least, is a toner in an iron toner based on ingredients listed in MSD. I'm not sure about Yellow.
     
  8. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Bottles of Edwal toners came. Apparently, once ferricynide is mixed into the solution, the stock solution only lasts for a few weeks. That doesn't give me much time to experiment....

    The instructions that came with the bottles are rather brief. Oh well...

    I'll report back once I play with these.
     
  9. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Grrr.....

    Tried blue kind. Pretty much a disaster.

    I took an untoned print, wet it, then poured 1:15 solution (recommended dilution) for 4 minutes. (recommended is 3 to 4 minutes) Then washed for 5 minutes.

    The result is no different from if I poured a diluted blue ink. The color went everywhere including borders. The amount of coloring doesn't appear to have anything to do with density of the print. What's worse, in 5 minute wash (under very slow moving water), enough washed off that area with any density didn't show much color at all.

    Obviously, something is wrong. What? I have no idea.
     
  10. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    tkamiya:

    If the Edwal coloured toners are similar to the Berg coloured toners, they are actually more like dyes than toners - they just impart an overall colour.
     
  11. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Matt,

    I thought BLUE was an iron blue toner. My understanding is that component of the toner reacts with silver in the image and turns into dye - in turn toning that location. So.... I thought it will affect the shadow and leave the highlight alone. Instructions say to wash long enough to clear the highlight.

    I did that and everything washed off.... very very very vague hint of blue remained but it hardly left any color.

    Something is awfully wrong here.
     
  12. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Nope - at least not if the Edwal Blue toner is like the Berg blue "toner" I have used - see the Freestyle link referred to in Ian C's post above.
     
  13. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    What's odd though, the stock solution is definitely blue. When diluted 1:15, it becomes almost clear. When it touches print, it starts to turn really blue. It might have some dye component to it but I do think it isn't a pure dye based toner.
     
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  15. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    More experimentation....

    Diluted the stock solution to 1:10 rather than 1:15 and poured it on top of the print. Let it sit there for 5 minutes. Then washed it with tray full of water with a little bit of stop bath to make it acidic. (I read alkaline water will dissolve color)

    Well... It's blue.... but it's more of stain than tone.

    I can see shadow is in darker blue than highlight but even borders are in light blue. 15 minutes wash did not clear the border. It's stained....

    It is still acting like a blue ink.
     
  16. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    I used Edwal's blue toner many years ago.

    My memories are:

    It toned the silver blue - it toned the highlights first and the shadows last - so you could split tone depending on when you pulled the print from the toner bath. Blacks stayed black (it may have been blue-black in some spectroscopic reality, but it just looked black).

    It didn't tone the borders.

    It wasn't like pouring blue ink on the paper.

    It really toned the tray -- I could not get the blue precipitate off the tray, though enough came off as smudges on any print I tried to process in the tray. Either trash one tray or dedicate it to blue toning. Probably the ideal tray would be a Pyrex baking dish. Silver will halide will build up in a fixer tray and it is impossible to get it out of the plastic. You don't notice it until you mix the trays up and pour developer into the tray and the white tray turns silver gray (or use it for selenium and have it turn purple/pink).

    If it is still the iron toner that I remember then the formation of the Prussian blue pigment requires silver. If the toner is old and oxidized (or whatever happens to blue toner with time) then it may do something other - like turn everything blue? But I have no experience that it does go bad in such a fashion.

    If the print isn't completely fixed then there will be silver halide in the border/highlights and the toner will react with it and turn blue. The same happens with selenium toner and is the reason for 'selenium staining'. A drop of selenium toner on the border of a print is used as a test of residual silver, if color develops then the print wasn't fixed long enough (or the fixer is loaded with silver and the print hasn't been washed enough).

    Try a two-bath fixing regime, a good treatment in fresh HCA, and a thorough wash before toning. Check with test solutions that there is no residual silver or residual fixer in the print. Often the toner instructions say you can go straight from the fix to the toner - in my experience this is just asking for stains and/or toned borders.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2012
  17. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Nicholas,

    I already do two-fix and HCA, then 30 minutes wash. If I skip HCA, I do 60 minutes wash. Always two bath fix. So that's not part of the equation.

    I think "silver blue" is a good description of the color. I thought of it as a neon blue. Yup, it toned my cups and trays. Everything is in nice blue except the print....

    I have no idea what this stuff is anymore.

    I am going to play with this again today and see.
     
  18. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I found the source of my problem. It was paper.

    I was using Adorama brand FB Matte because this paper tones beautifully in selenium and brown. But apparently, it isn't reactive to blue. As soon as I switched to Ilford FB WT, it toned and to the color I was looking for.

    EXCEPT... this tone doesn't really work with this image in a way I was hoping.

    Oh well...
     
  19. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Nope, it wasn't paper....

    My current thought is that my initial failure was a result of insufficient amount of toner in solution. I tried with plenty of 1:15 (recommended) solution and the Adorama paper toned well. Actually, too well. It turned pretty dark blue. Tried with 1:30 and toning action stopped prematurely.

    This stuff really stains all over. Borders are definitely stained in blue. I fixed using two bath method and HCA, then into 30 minutes wash.

    I made 26 small prints and toned one in selenium. No stains. Toned in blue - entire border turned blue.

    Worse, I lost detail in highlight area. I'm thinking ferricynide in this blue toner bleached it all out....

    Combined, my experiment was a failure. Not only did I not get the result I was looking for, the process itself is pretty much uncontrollable. Staining in white area and loss of detail is not acceptable in this particular image.

    Due to lack of my experience with other blue toners, I am not certain if this particular toner (Edwal blue) is the problem or all blue toners act like this. I am contemplating of ordering a kit from Photographer's formulary.
     
  20. zsas

    zsas Member

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  21. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I think I got what I want here.....

    Blue wasn't the solution. I thought what I wanted was a blue tone because the print is a beach scene with lots of water and sky. Nope. It spoke the different language even when I got the right blue. I was able to over-wash this print and adjust the blue. It still wasn't right.

    Ilford FBWT and DEEP selenium toning was the solution. In m desperation, I took Ilford FBWT and deep selenium toned it. KRST 1:5 for 3 minutes. It took the print to a deep dark chocolate brown. Highlight has nice more less off white base coming through. It speaks the right language. Not so obviously brown like brown toner would make it. It has a hint of brown. Dark but warm.

    Yay!
     
  22. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    SUCCESS!

    After considerable amount of experimentation and a consultation with Dr. Rudman, I was able to achieve BLUE toning the way I wanted.

    First off, Dr. Rudman says Edwal product IS an iron toner. He also said blue is notoriously difficult to get it right especially in fiber paper that he recommends RC. I had some scrap print on RC, so I just tried it really quickly.

    The result is, I have no blue in borders and the toning is proportional to the density in print.

    Looks good....
     
  23. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I'm not sure what the current production is or exactly what you ordered. Both Berg and Edwal have supplied a variety of toners over the years. Indeed, some have been dye toners that just impart an overall tone to the gelatin. Others have been coupler toners that just color the image. Those work somewhat like Kodachrome and generally involve a bleach and redevelop method. Berg has produced gold based blue toners in the past, and Edwal has produced iron toners.
     
  24. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    One of the problems I encountered with Edwal products are that there is no publication available that tells me exactly what they are. There is a little leaflet that comes with each bottle but it's generic and doesn't really tell me anything.

    This product acts like a dye toner with FB paper and it tones everywhere including the borders. With RC, it tones proportionally with density of the silver.

    I have Photographer's Formulary version on order. I know what these are....

    This is very frustrating.
     
  25. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    hmmm....I"m looking into TONING of films--I originally read this thread and thought edwal was just a hylight dye--I found the msds for blue and it is certainly silver reacting chemicals--SO--I'm gonna try this stuff too--since it works good with RC paper this is very encouraging for film use--pre-mixed bottles take a lot of variables out of trying to mix up my own toners.

    I'm going to try the red and green since these are what I will need for a 2-color transparency process....what have you used-concentration-wise for success-did it match with the directions?
     
  26. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    Delusion was in ratio of toner:water, 1:15, that is one part toner, 15 part water. This is per instructions. To be more specific, it says "dilute the concentrate with 15 parts of water..."

    Problem that I had with its use with fiber paper is that it stained everywhere and did not wash off. Because it toned borders and highlights so heavily (and didn't wash off), the whole thing turned blue with reduction of contrast. With RC, the highlight and border stayed white after brief wash.

    Another problem I had is that the working solution exhausts fast - not with time but when it reacts with silver. When I didn't have enough, it didn't tone completely. Reaction speed was slow enough that I had good control. It started changing color vaguely at 1 minute mark. At 3 minute mark, it had good blue but had still some distance to go before it's completed.

    I have no idea what it'll do with film.

    I tend NOT to suggest this product because knowledge base is so sparse - to a point almost non-existent.