Effect of Dmax, Delta 100 have 4.5 , TriX have 3.5

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    How Dmax analysis results effects the final photograph.

    I was a Crossfield 656 Drum Scanner operator and highest black was coming from Leica IIIC with Elmar 50mm and it was 3.5 , film was Kodak EPP. I scanned 8x10 US Ford Slides to anything and this was the highest in 4 years , year 1994-98.

    Was it the thing called DMax ?

    I visited DR5 and it says Delta have 4.5 , I remember Photo Engineer told about cine film copying film and was Dmax was 4.

    Can someone shed a light on Delta 100 films and I am very excited.

    Umut
     
  2. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    High D-Max caused by extra camera exposure will make printing times long.

    High D-Max caused by extra development steepens the characteristic curve which changes the relationship to the paper, a shorter range will straight print. Think Zone system "+" development or pushing.
     
  3. polyglot

    polyglot Member

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    Why would you be very excited about Dmax for a negative? It's only really relevant for a display material, i.e. if you're using (as per DR5) the material for reversal.

    Otherwise, 3.5 is plenty of range and represents a lot more than what you can fit onto a print.

    And quit it with the Leicaphilia. Seriously, you know the camera doesn't affect the density of the negs, it's entirely down to exposure and processing.
     
  4. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Those are only the dMax numbers for the dr5 process.
     
  5. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Umut: D-max for a negative film is simply the maximum density (opacity) the developed metallic silver is capable of producing. A higher density means less light is transmitted. For papers it is the same thing (ie density of deposited silver) but is defined by reflection density since the print is viewed by reflected rather than transmitted light. So for negatives and transparencies, d-max results in the least amount of light transmission. For prints, d-max results in the least amount of light reflection ("maximum black").
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Are you talking about the Dmax of negative or positive images?

    Are you accounting for the contrast and latitude if these are negatives?

    If they are positives, are they direct positives achieved by a reversal process, or are they made by a neg-pos printing process?

    These questions are critical in the answer to the OP.

    And then, are these figures from a densitometer or from a scanned image? If so, then nothing can be said!

    PE
     
  7. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    When you have reversal material, the quality of the glass does impact the Dmax. More flare means lower Dmax. With negative material it would be Dmin that's affected.
     
  8. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    Actually flare does not change the D-max or D-min of the film or paper, those are determined physically/chemically.

    Flare does though change the qualities/usability of the image within that range.
     
  9. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I am not expert. Lets talk about negative films and D76 development and scanning on a desktop scanner for APUG galleries.
    I have a Zeiss Ikon Nettar and I can buy Tri X or Delta 100. Film will be 120 class.

    I used Tri X, Plus X and Agfa Films past 20 years and with LTM.

    Do Delta 100 have a advantage over other films ? I have extremelly tight budget now and I buy 2 rolls in 3 months.

    Umut
     
  10. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    I am not an expert on the galleries, but aren't the scans in APUG galleries supposed to be scans of analog prints?
     
  11. fotch

    fotch Member

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    I don't think it matters.
     
  12. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Ideally but seems most people post negative scans these days unfortunately.
     
  13. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I don't see how differences in d-max would be relevant at all when scanning B&W negatives for online galleries. Tri-X, Delta, TMax etc etc are all capable of producing higher maximum silver densities (in D76 or any other developer) than you'd realistically ever need to produce scans, prints, whatever. Concentrate on exposure and contrast. For practical photographic purposes the d-max of any current general purpose B&W negative film from Ilford, Kodak, Fuji etc is a virtually irrelevant number.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2012
  14. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, I find that any scan of a print falls far short of the quality of image from a negative or slide scan, and that is what I post in my gallery. No one has complained yet.

    As for a scan of a negative, then the dmin and slope of the negative curve determine the dmax of the positive image you obtain. However, the Dmax of the positive is adjustable by the scanner software, and this is because of the variations in negatives, and the "color" of the B&W negative image that can be obtained.

    So, the bottom line is that with good software, the Dmax of just about all scans can be adjusted to be the same. In terms of darkroom work, this is the equivalent to increasing exposure and contrast. This may indicate that the films are over or under developed. It is impossible to say without tests though.

    PE
     
  15. Bill Burk

    Bill Burk Subscriber

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    Hi Mustafa,

    You probably used the drum scanner in the graphic arts industry. There, a Dmax of 4.0 is common and desirable. At least when it comes to film used for platemaking. My densitometer can display 6.0 densities but I doubt the precision of these high density readings.

    In pictorial photography, using black and white negatives, it's not necessary to build great density. Density of 1.5 is going to make white on the print. You do not need the highest Dmax.

    A 100 speed film in your Zeiss Ikon Nettar will have an advantage over 400 speed film in some cases for obvious logical reasons: The finer grain. You get to take advantage of this if you use a high shutter speed, flash or a tripod. But if you walk and shoot casual snapshots in average conditions, I think a 400 speed film will really give better pictures because you will not have as much camera shake.
     
  16. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Thank you for helping hand , I am quite understood.

    I always posted negative scans done at Gretag Printer. I dont know why but color scans resist to my process attemps with softwares and whatever I do , result is worse. I did few attemps and put to the gallery but they are shame.

    My softwares are online photo editors and people use it to put a christmas tree or smiling mickey to the pictures :smile:

    I am waiting an lightmeter from New Mexico and I believe in what optical designer accomplished and what kodak , agfa engineers accomplished for normal development and exposure.

    I thought Rollei ATP and Rodinal 1/150 is the closest thing to Zeiss Triotar pictures and I have a triplet also and the most extreme thing I will do to take acutance to extreme by this way.

    Other thing is HC110 high dilution development on Tri X and above and below have similar results .

    I dont have a scanner and I will go to the lab and use their desktop scanner.

    Umut
     
  17. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    No, in a generic sense, neither has an advantage. Both will do great work.
     
  18. dr5chrome

    dr5chrome Member

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    DMAX on the dr5 site or the 'filmreview' pages refers to the blackest areas of the films. In other words, where there isn't any image - to put it simply. The films run in dr5 are processed as transparencies/slides. DMAX is used in all measurement of transparencies, be they B&W or color.
    How DMAX is used in other areas of photography is different.

    dw



     
  19. Bill Burk

    Bill Burk Subscriber

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    Thanks dw,

    DMAX when you are talking about transparencies is important, the people watching a slide show see how rich the slides are. A low DMAX in a projected slide looks muddy or washed out.

    (Compare this to printing from negatives where you choose the contrast of printing paper to make blacks richer).
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    There are two types of Dmax.

    Absolute Dmax is the highest value density a given photo product will give in a development condition that forms silver metal from silver halide. An example would be treatment in sodium sulfide solution which reduces the silver halide to silver metal. This can range from 3.0 - 5.0

    Effective Dmax is the Dmax obtained in any given developer in which the curve and speed are optimum for the film. These two may differ by a substantial amount. This is usually 3.0 - 4.0

    There is a third type, related only to print materials, in which Dmax is governed by the reflective support itself and this value is always limited to a maximum value by nature of the reflective material itself and not the amount of silver formed, nor by development. It is usually between 1.8 and 2.2.

    PE
     
  21. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    May be it would be a better idea to make a 6x17 camera , develop the bw positives with highest Dmax and look at the positives sandwiched in two glass plate like an autochrome.

    What is the sodium sulfite recipe and develop bw negative film in to positive with 4-5 Dmax ?

    And what is the average LCD Screen Dmax ?

    Thanks,

    Umut