Emulsion making data

Discussion in 'Silver Gelatin Based Emulsion Making & Coating' started by Photo Engineer, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    At Kodak, we modeled emulsions, made them and then compared the run-time data with the modeled data for accuracy.

    This gave us a feeling for the model, and also told us what took place in the kettle as we made the emulsion.

    We had a rich history in mathematics related to emulsion making, and this is reflected in the dozens of patents and publications on this subject. These publications seem to have been generally overlooked.

    In any event, attached is a run time plot of a pure chloride (Azo type) emulsion made actually for Supra color paper. These too were pure chloride emulsions which were either treated to add epitaxy after the make or which had an Iodide compound added to increase sensitivity. Supra and Endura chloride emulsions could approach ISO 25 in speed.

    The data is courtesy of Dr. Bruce Kahn.

    Two things of note. The 'bobble' in salt flow at the start of the make is due to an incorrect PID setting, and the general salt flow overall overruns the silver flow due to the increasing ionic strength. This is all seen in the equations applicable to this, for those that are interested.

    Afterthought to Simon Galley and the staff at Ilford. This is a freebie from Bruce's course at RIT.

    PE
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2008
  2. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Well, there went some good info... Did someone make a Foto3 comment?
     
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  3. rmazzullo

    rmazzullo Member

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    Some of the material was already covered here before, in other threads.

    Bob M.
     
  4. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    "Some", but not all.
     
  5. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    So if I want comments from Ryuji and Ron on the same subject, it looks like I need to post two threads - one directed at each of them. And then later, we can get the mods to merge the 2 threads together I suppose...
     
  6. dwross

    dwross Subscriber

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    Hi Kirk,

    It sounds like information got deleted (?) I know you wouldn't complain otherwise. Some of this stuff is too valuable to lose. Is there any way you can recap the gist of what got zapped? I think I might get in the habit of printing pages that look interesting. Apparently you never know if they'll stay put.
    d
     
  7. Neanderman

    Neanderman Member

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    Like that's never happened on this site before...

    What gives? I'd been following this thread and saw no reason to delete it wholesale. Hell, at this rate, they might as well have deleted the whole thread; there's nothing left anyway.

    Ed
     
  8. rmazzullo

    rmazzullo Member

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    You're kidding, right? Did you take a good look at the attached graph?

    Bob M.
     
  9. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    OK, Bob. Would you care to go over the data in the graph and recreate the analysis that Ryuji did? A lot of people here and not well versed in interpreting data from graphs alone.
     
  10. rmazzullo

    rmazzullo Member

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    Kirk,

    I will not do any analysis, because Photo Engineer did it correctly from the start, in spite of best efforts to confuse the subject.

    It is important to decide who has the right and the wrong information --- and what the motives are behind the scenes. Who stands to gain what, exactly?

    Once you determine that, your analysis will be complete. I go by what I see. I have seen examples. I have had the benefit of someone else's guidance using example after example, explaining theory and procedure, mistakes, and small changes in procedure and components that make all the difference in the result, gained from years of first hand experience. In phone call after phone call, using illustration and references to other texts to make the point clearer. That same person explained to me the reasons for certain decisions and the effects gained in a few particular patents --- sort of filling in the blanks, as it were. Again, first hand knowledge.

    I will be damned if I listen to anyone who claims the same level of expertise or experience, without a single shred of proof. Further, they add insult to injury by refusing to post any examples, prior work, mistakes, or procedures of their own. It's the same story over and over and over again.

    You can be hypnotized all you want by the flowery technobabble, but its existence doesn't guarantee that it's correct. Any pharmaceutical drug rep can tell you that. (How many people did they kill today?)

    You can spout all the technical gobbledygook on the planet, but if you can't show me results, what's your point?? Perhaps there are other agendas in play which have a vested interest in making sure emulsion making never really gets off the ground in a big way. Far-fetched? Apparently not at all.

    You yourself said it best. "OK, Bob. Would you care to go over the data in the graph and recreate the analysis that Ryuji did?"

    Now, why would I want to do that?

    At some point in the not too distant future, the real information flow will stop, and then you will have to trust that what you are left with is correct. What if you discover that "material" is not correct at all? Well, I guess then that particular party (or parties) can make emulsion, but they will have made sure the rest of us won't be able to. Is that how it's supposed to go?

    Bob M.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2008
  11. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

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    I'm sorry about the deletions, but it was in direct violation of a prior agreement I had with the parties involved in the discussion. Does this harm the content on APUG, sure it does, but for some reason these emulsion topics result in endless wars that when raging either in the forums or off line suck up countless hours of peoples time, mostly mine. It is not APUG's fault when people can not get along, but we will put up firewalls between people when necessary and do the best we can to enforce & manage such situations rather than taking the other approach and banning accounts. After dealing with emulsion wars for the last couple of years I want a stop to it on this site, some data may be lost because of that, it's unfortunate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2008
  12. Ray Rogers

    Ray Rogers Member

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    ... but for some reason these emulsion topics result in endless wars...
    Is the reason not because someone has been unsuccessful at mastering rudimentary rules of basic personal, academic and professional courtesy... in plain English, Common Courtesy?!!

    But I digress.

    Is it not possible to first dump all posts that are destined to be deleted... into a "Toilet" or "Septic Tank" for a while before they are permanently deleted?

    While primitive primate behaviour has no place here, it is a fact that few of us like being told we can't see, and therefore can't know, what has been said, and what is therefore, part of our history.

    For future readers, perhaps there is no other choice, but for those who live this history now, some sort of time-delayed kill would be appreciated.

    Ray


     
  13. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Ray;

    I have to agree with Sean.

    In the final analysis, if I err (which I did) it takes up Sean's time. This is not good for APUG. So, for the health of APUG he is doing the best he can. However, at the same time, you have made some useful points.

    PE
     
  14. Ray Rogers

    Ray Rogers Member

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    Resisting the temptation to create an illusion

    Ron;

    Unfortunately, I missed what happened.
    I do understand the burden it places on Sean....

    Ray