Ethol LPD

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by pentaxuser, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    I know there have been several threads on this but I thought it best to place my request on a new thread.

    A recent thread about its longevity made me research its other properties and it seems that depending on dilution it will do a range of tones from a light warm brown to dark brown in WT papers and from very light to warm silver through to cold to blue black in cold/neutral papers.

    I did some research and stole the above categories from a description Les McLean gave several years ago when he explained what dilutions gave what colour and my thanks to his post.

    Could any of you LPD users out there show examples of what these different dilutions produce as a print. A set of different tones of the same print and in both WT and cold/neutral paper would be ideal but any examples will be appreciated

    This stuff is not easy to get in the U.K. but it might be worth the effort depending on the results on prints


    Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  2. pstake

    pstake Member

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  3. SuzanneR

    SuzanneR Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Several years ago, I tested out different dilutions of the LPD on Ilford warmtone paper, and though the differences were quite obvious in person from 1:1 dilution to 1:5, it was harder to discern a difference when I scanned the prints. Just a little too subtle for the scanner. It's a great all purpose developer, and since it comes in a powder form it doesn't cost as much to ship, highly recommended.
     
  4. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    I mentioned once on FADU that I use it but had heard it was hard to find in the UK, and several people replied telling me where they got it. I don't remember now, but apparently it is available in the UK. I can check FADU and see if I can find that thread.

    EDIT:

    http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=66956&highlight=Ethol#post66956

    AG Photographic carries it but says they are waiting for fresh stock:

    http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/ethol-lpd-1us-gal-2356-p.asp

    That price is about double what I pay for it, though. At current exchange rates 19.95 GBP is $30.60 USD and I pay $15.99/gallon for the powder from Freestyle. However I have to admit that I like it enough I'd still use it if it were $30.
     
  5. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks all so far. I had feared that the differences, especially between the different tones on cold/neutral paper might be so subtle that a scan of a print wouldn't show it. I imagine purely from Les McLean's category descriptions that WT paper is probably more responsive but its the cold/neutral paper where the differences are subtle.

    I may be looking for the "Holy Grail" here but if I am honest I was hoping that even with neutral/cold paper that I could get a reasonably warm look.

    If Suzanne can see a difference with her naked eye then I should as well provided my eye is as discerning.

    Can I ask this to help clarify: How much warmer in relation to other WT developers can LPD warm up neutral paper? I am a RC user and have access to Ilford, Fotospeed,Kentmere and Adox RCVC

    Any one of these papers more responsive than the others?

    One additional question if I may: It sounds as if I'd need to go to 1:4 or even 1:5 to get warmth so how much does this extend developing time?

    Thanks for your info on LPD as well, Roger. It would appear that Ag is my only bet and as you say it is waiting for fresh stock but I'll check Silverprint as well.

    pentaxuser
     
  6. pstake

    pstake Member

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    Going from 1:1 to 1:2 made a noticeably warmer image on ILFORD MGIV fiber, for me. It extended development by 30 seconds to a minute. (It took an extra 30 seconds or so for the image to appear, in the developer. I left it in for 3 minutes (I think).

    At 1:1, I usually leave it in for 2:15 ... Anyway, 1:2 is the "warmest" i've ever diluted LPD.

    If Thomas Bertilsson (sp?) sees this thread, he may be able comment more intelligently. I seem to remember seeing LPD listed as his paper dev of choice in the gallery. And he, like Suzanne, seems generally to be more attuned to the nuance of paper and chemistry, than me.

    I like LPD's versatility for sure; but mostly I like its economy. Stuff lasts forever and ever.
     
  7. rorye

    rorye Subscriber

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    I've tested 4 different papers at 4 different dilutions.
    My scanning skills are not too good but I'd be happy to send you the test strips.
    It is a super developer.
     
  8. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    rorye, a kind of a swatch book of print/dev dilutions.That's a great offer but have a look at where I am - in a place called Daventry in the heart of the U.K. Midlands. Only about 7000 miles away:D

    If you are still willing then what would it cost to send them to the U.K.? If the cost is reasonable I can cover it with Paypal if you have an account.

    Let me know. Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  9. Richard Jepsen

    Richard Jepsen Member

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    I use LPD at 1:3 all the time. The tone shift is not dramatic. Shifts may be aided by toning or pulling a print. For reference, think Ilford's PQ universal paper developer used with Galerie.

    Galerie untoned is just left of neutral. PQ is just left of neutral vs the same print developed in Dektol. Compare the Galerie 1:3 print to a similar print developed 1:3 in LPD but toned in KRST. The tone shift would move from from just left of neutral to a cooler just right of neutral tone.

    Think of the tone difference between pulling a print vs normal 2 min development. That may be another way to visualize how much the tone scale can be bent with LPD dilutions. The extreme ends, 1:1 vs 1:5, combined with toning on some papers may be more dramatic.

    You can't make neutral/cool Ilford MGIV look warm.

    LPD fully develops prints in 120s unlike 130 diluted 1:3 or higher.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2013
  10. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    Reportedly you can make MGWT look cool with Moersch SE6. There was a thread about that here. But I agree that you can't do so with LPD though you could cool it slightly compared to a warm tone developer.

    I use LPD 1+2 and find it slightly cooler than Dektol, or at least not quite as much green tinge. I still routinely tone in dilute KRST for cool/neutral papers.

    I should also point out that LPD is available, at least in the US, as a liquid concentrate. You pay more for the convenience and probably more for shipping but that might be worth it to you. The important thing is that the liquid is more concentrated than the stock mixed from powder so you dilute the liquid concentrate 1+4 for the same results as 1+2 from the powder. Otherwise, I've used both and they seem identical.
     
  11. pstake

    pstake Member

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    The extreme cold-tone end would be undiluted as opposed to 1:1.

    Even with MGIV, the difference between 1:0, 1:1, and 1:2, is noticeable from cold blue blacks to mildly cool blacks. This is, at least, my experience, which is admittedly only 10 years, and using LPD for only two of them.
     
  12. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    You are clearly saying that LPD develops all prints in 120 seconds if the dilution is 1+3 or higher. Does 120 seconds apply to other dilutions and what is the significance of "unlike 130" ? Is this Ansco 130 and you are saying that the difference is that LPD retains the two minute development time but the Ansco 130 then needs longer than 120 seconds at dilutions of 1+3 or higher

    If I have fully understood your statement above then it sounds as if LPD develops all print in 120 seconds irrespective of the dilution?

    Have I got this correct?

    Thanks
     
  13. titrisol

    titrisol Member

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    In prints LPD 1+1 or 1+3 the tone change was subtle but noticeable.
    It is dramatic if you do 1+10 or higher (warning, you maybe only able to develop a few prints so keep the stock handy to replenish)

    However, when you tone the print the way it reacts can be dramatic
    You get nice aubergine tones with selenium and dark chocolates or "caffe au lait) tones with viradon.
     
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  15. rorye

    rorye Subscriber

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    I find LPD takes at least 3 mins, typically I give it 4, but of course everyone has different ways of working, just my 2cents
     
  16. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    It is fully dependent on temperature, and little bit less dependent on exposure. you are right in that we all find different ways.
     
  17. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Can you give more details? For instance is the 3 mins the right time for the usual 20 degrees C and if so is there a table or any user experience here to show what times might be for someone with a Nova processor where the temp cam be increased considerably and might there be limit to the max temp at which LPD will work properly? If so what might this be?

    Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  18. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    I'm with Rory. I use LPD replenished, and recently tested to see what three and four minute developing times do, and there is a definite increase in 'weight' to the print tonality going to 4 minutes.
    It also depends a bit on print size. I develop longer for a 16x20 than I do for an 11x14, because of the fine detail that starts to appear when the prints are bigger. That micro detail appears to almost lower overall contrast (it doesn't actually do that), but to counteract that impression I leave it in for a bit longer. That is way easier than to give 1/2 grade more contrast.

    After reading all of the above I'm keen to try LPD undiluted.
     
  19. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    OK still waiting for answers to the correlation between temp and dev time but it is early days, especially in the U.S.( breakfast time in California :D) but can it be confirmed that greater dilutions do not increase dev time by those who have tried different dilutions or is there also a relationship between dilution and dev time?

    It strikes me that for stuff that has been around a long time there seems to be so little in terms of technical detail which I find surprising.

    pentaxuser
     
  20. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Sorry, can't help you with that... I don't live in California.
     
  21. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    LPD, in my experience, stops working below 18 degrees Celsius. At 19°C I will run about three to four minutes. At 20°C I like to run about 2 minutes. At 22 I'll run about 90 seconds. One thing to keep in mind here is that your thermometers and my thermometers will read differently, it is not uncommon to see two different thermometers show a 1 or 2° difference.

    These are baseline numbers depending on the prints and what I'm looking for, as Thomas says running a little extra can get or add weight to the print, the need for that is totally subjective.

    All the developers that I have used, come up quickly to a certain point (say over the first 90 seconds) and then the progress moves slowly from there to completion. Anywhere after that first 90 seconds or so you can decide where to stop depending on your needs, including how much exposure you have given the print.
     
  22. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    For what it's worth I've worked with LPD at about 55 degrees F, and while not ideal, it continues on.
     
  23. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks, Mark that's very helpful information. It sounds as if dilution ratios doesn't make any difference to dev time which is to all intents and purposes temp dependent.

    Of course this is my conclusion by reading between the lines and based on nothing being said about the dilution/time effect.

    If there is a dilution/time effect then maybe someone will correct my conclusion. Thanks

    pentaxuser
     
  24. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    As long as LPD is fresh or well replenished dilution, per the Ethol instructions, has very little effect on time. Capacity drops as dilution increases.
     
  25. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks again Mark

    pentaxuser
     
  26. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I'm not an LPD user, but since it appears to be essentially a PQ-Carbonate formula (perhaps with some other goodies thrown in) I don't see how both temperature and concentration would not be directly related to development time. All other variables being kept constant (including development time), a lower temperature or a more dilute mixture would decrease the amount of development taking place - which tends to lead to slightly warmer tones, but also probably having an impact on contrast and d-max.