ethylene and propylene glycol

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by daveandiputra, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. daveandiputra

    daveandiputra Member

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    just wondering is ethylene glycol that is used for radiator coolant can be used to replace propylene glycol in pyrocat MC?

    cheers,

    dave
     
  2. jochen

    jochen Member

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    Hello Dave,
    I cannot say whether 1,2-propylengycol can be substituted by ethylene glycol. But never use a fully formulated radiator coolant since this contains many other components like amines, borates, some times sodium nitrite, benzotriazole .... mainly as anti corrosion additives for the different metals in a radiator and engine.
     
  3. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Hi Dave. I have used the anti-freeze concentrate but I chose the one that wasn't lurid green. It is blue and not fluorescent. Hitachi truck anti-freeze MSDS says it's strait eth glycol.

    Some, as has been stated have phosphates in and I checked the pH of a dilute solution and it was between 8 and 9. At the concentrations of that developer it probably won't affect the issue but make up a small quantity first so's to be on the safe side.

    If pyro is an issue you could substitute HQ for the trial.

    Murray
     
  4. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Antifreeze contains various rust inhibitors and other additives. So it is not a good choice.
     
  5. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Indeed Jerry, but some of us don't have the luxury of picking up chems as easily as you in the US do. Here in Oz and Dave in Indonesia have to work around. I have tried unsuccessfully to purchase something as simple as PPD or CD-4 or even propylene glycol or TEA and it is a real hassle. I finally bought at great expense 5L of P glycol and TEA and the latter turned out to be low freezing point TEA with 15% water. It is useless as a water free developer solvent. $56 down the drain!
    Another solvent is brake fluid. It's a high alcohol (as you know) and it works pretty well for concentrates.
    One gets used to 'work arounds'.

    Murray
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, I should add here that pH is a meaningless term when you are speaking of water free or low water environments so comments about the pH of antifreeze are meaningless.

    Here are some other things to remember:

    1. Both Propylene Glycol and Ethylene Glycol taste sweet. (no, I have never tasted them on purpose)

    2. Propylene Glycol is safe to use in foodstuffs where a sweet taste and thickening are useful.

    3. Ethylene Glycol is deadly poison.

    4. Animals and children like the sweet taste and children love the pretty color of EG solutions used in antifreeze.

    Have fun. I guess this is another reason not to live on OZ IMHO besides the snakes and spiders! And I thought getting chemistry here in the US was hard!

    PE
     
  7. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Don't know if this will help but propylene glycol is used to make various liquid medications. TEA is an ingredient in lotions and soaps. You might try what is called in the US a "compounding pharmacy." They do more than just move pills from bottle to bottle. They actually make up medications.
     
  8. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Hehehehe. Thanks for the endorsement, Ron! I have visited the US many times and the spiders and snakes are quite similar. It's the salt water crocodiles and drop bears you have to watch for here.

    I don't think the poisonous nature of the eth glycol is an issue here. I wouldn't like to eat/drink anything photographic actually. The antifreeze (ethylene glycol) is denatured here for that reason and it can often be the only additive. I mentioned the pH when water was added to give an indication of what might be present in the anti-freeze to start with. I know, no water, no pH.

    I looked into those compounding pharmacy places, Jerry, but it was even worse than trying to buy boric acid from them. They grudgingly sold me 50g of that. Chemical supply houses are enormously expensive. It's all lab grade and priced accordingly. That's where I got the TEA but didn't check the label until too late. I wrongly assumed it would be 100% coming from that particular source. Grr.
     
  9. daveandiputra

    daveandiputra Member

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    Hi All, thanks for the inputs.

    what Murray says is pretty much the truth here in Indonesia, getting chemicals here is not easy. i can get the chemicals that is used by the local industry but most photographic chemicals are not used here. at least that is what i gather from the regular chemical store.

    this is the glycol antifreeze i got at home
    http://unitedoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/GLYCOL-ANTIFREEZE.pdf
    the composition only says de-ionized water and the ethylene glycol, but the color is green, any reason it will not work murray?

    and about TEA, i just realized you need TEA to make the metol base for pyrocat MC, any way to get around that?

    ps: don't worry PE, i'm keeping this awayyyy from children :smile:
     
  10. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Hi Murray,

    I have no idea of what a drop bear is but we do have salt water crocodiles in south Florida. They are doing quite well and have been expanding their habitat. They are, however, very shy and feed on fish. Then there are the alligators which are found all around the Gulf Coast states. They are everywhere and are agressive and will sometimes attack people. It is said that there are more alligators than people in Florida.

    There are several companies in the US that sell soap making supples. They sell to hobbiests that make their own soaps and lotions. Anything similar in Australia. I have bought propylene glycol and TEA from one such company here.

    Jerry
     
  11. Poisson Du Jour

    Poisson Du Jour Member

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    Strange. EG (and it comes in any colour from green to straw to blue to cherry here in Australia) is designed to be extremely bitter (to discourage tasting/swallowing it!). Most also damage paintwork, plastics and cutaneous ulceration: not the sort of stuff I'd put in a darkroom.... BTW, EG is never, ever used alone in modern radiators: either pre-mixed with distilled water or bought already mixed.
     
  12. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    No, Dave, what you want is the waterless one. The stuff I bought is labelled something like 1076g/litre ethylene glycol. I just decided the lurid one was sticking my neck out too far for nasties I didn't want. As it is there is still a goodly risk of strange chemicals in there.

    To make the developer concentrate with water in it would start the degradation from day 1. Stick to the concentrate and don't use the premix.

    Jerry I have to let you in on an army joke. On exercise here the visiting US soldiers are warned by the diggers to be careful walking under thick bush or a drop bear may suddenly get them. For the first few days they walk around looking up.

    Brisbane is on almost exactly the same latitude (south) as Miami but it's way too cold for the crocs to breed or even live here. Even on the tropic it's questionable whether they swam or gruyere.

    I don't know of any soap makers locally altho I'm sure they exist somewhere. All I ever read on the 'net is how good the home made soap is because it doesn't have TEA or nasty chemicals in it. Apart from caustic soda, that is. I am informed by a Melbourne inhabitant that he got his P glycol from a refrigeration outfit quite cheaply if he supplied his own 5L can, which he did. I tried that unsuccessfully, and went for the lab grade after carefully checking it wasn't adulterated with water like the TEA. Any developers I made up with the eth glycol are still OK. Pretty blue, too. Easy to tell if they're going 'off'.

    So, there you have it, Dave; you pays yer money and you takes yer chances.

    Good luck.

    Murray
     
  13. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Just remembered that I didn't answer your question about TEA and the metol base, Dave.

    My experience was that any water makes it oxidise quickly and can't think of any way around that even tho it is a recommended way to make Pyrocat-MC. The second time I used it the film came out almost clear. The developer was dark already.

    Murray

    quote
    and about TEA, i just realized you need TEA to make the metol base for pyrocat MC, any way to get around that?
    unquote.
     
  14. daveandiputra

    daveandiputra Member

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    so in effect if i can't get TEA, i can just forget about the glycol :smile: there's no way i can get the metol to dissolve in glycol right?

    so it looks like pyrocat M is the way to go.
     
  15. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    I didn't mean to put you off, merely to tell you of my own experience. There's probably thousands of users out there using Pat Gainer's method to dissolve the metol. Perhaps I used too much water? Who can tell?

    You would have to go back to that thread and check that the TEA method was the only way to do it. I cannot recall if that was the only way.
     
  16. haryanto

    haryanto Member

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    dave if u live in Jakarta you can get TEA n P glycol at harum kimia rawamangun, it's about under 50k rupiah/L
     
  17. daveandiputra

    daveandiputra Member

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    Hi Mas haryanto, when I ask for it at harum kimia senen they say it's not available :smile: I'll try rawamangun.

    So it's settled, I'll just wait for the catechol to arrive. Thanks for all the help Murray, Mas haryanto, Jerry, PE, and Gary :wink:
     
  18. haryanto

    haryanto Member

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    You can find a lot of chemistry store that sell P Glycol, or u can pm me ur phone number, I still have a few L

    u r welcome dave
     
  19. bsdunek

    bsdunek Subscriber

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    Here in the U.S.A., propylene glycol is available as “RV Antifreeze”. This is used to winterize your travel trailer or motorhome to prevent the pipes from freezing. You may be able to find it in Oz. I don't know what addives are in it, but I'm sure less than automotive anti-freeze.
     
  20. mgb74

    mgb74 Subscriber

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    Generally I think you're right. But I was just looking at the label for Peak RV antifreeze today (winterizing the boat) and it listed some "glycol" chemicals then said "OR propylene glycol". I was under the impression that all RV antifreeze was propylene glycol based - but maybe not. The label went on to say that the solution was "generally regarded as safe".

    Propylene Glycol is also used to treat Ketosis in cows (don't ask me what Ketosis is - I just read the label). So that might be a source anywhere there's a farm supply store. I think it may have less other stuff in it than the RV antifreeze, but will be more expensive.