Expired 500 Fuji ECN-2 +HC110/B +E6 Color Developer

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by Cruzingoose, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    The experiment:

    Out of C-41 and needed to develop a roll of Fuji ECN type film. So I mixed a batch of HC110/B and an equal amount of Kodak E6 Color Developer. Mixed the two and developed this roll of film in it. 3 minutes at 100F, wash and blix for 5 minutes. The film is about 3 years out of date so I did not expect much, but I am quite pleased and surprised at the results. Enough so I may tweak the process more as feedback come in. First, the color card was exposed using the "Full Spectrum" 40 watt fluro tubes in the room. After processing I placed the negs on the light table (cool white)? and imaged using my only digicam, an old Sony FD71. The image was reversed and slightly adjusted and tweaked in P-Shop. So I tried another roll, but this time 3 minutes of HC110 at room temp, wash, color develop at room temp, wash and blix also at room temp. The results were NOT what I expected at all. I got B&W negs. Not a hint of color at all, except for the film base.
     

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  2. RPC

    RPC Member

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    With your second roll it makes sense you would have no color. The first developer would have developed all the exposed silver halide so there was none left to develop for the color developer, assuming you didn't re-expose, so no dye would form. But I wouldn't expect you to have a b&w image, since the blix should have removed all of the silver. But then, I am not that familiar with ECN type film.
     
  3. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    RPC, that occured to me also, but I have repeated the process again with the same results. HC110,wash,color dev,wash,blix,wash results in a strong, nicely printable B&W negative. Just for info, the remjet coating did not come out with the HC110, but with the wash water. After HC110 4 wash cycles, there was no trace of remjet in the remaining steps. I am thawing out some fresh Kodak and Fuji D64 and D250 ECN type film to repeat the test. Attempted to print some RA4 tonight but found the heater in the dev tank has quit. I'll have to pul out the Bessler drum and roller for now.
     
  4. JoJo

    JoJo Member

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    Mixing b/w and color developer should end in a very thin color negative, because the b/w developer takes away most of the color image.
    Using a Blix should delete any b/w image from the film.
    Using a b/w developer followed by a color developer plus using a Blix should end in a completly clear film. There is nothing left for the color developer.
    The reason of getting a color negative could be:
    - the b/w developer was dead
    - time of b/w developing was too short or developer was too cold, so most of the image was left for the color developer.
    The reason of getting a b/w negative could be
    - Blix was dead or blix time was too short, so most of the silver image resides on the film.

    I don't see any reason to use b/w developer, except of trying to do reverse processing.
    ECN-2 film can be developed in E-6 color developer only, as long as the developer does not include the reversal bath. Developers from 3-bath kits cannot be used.

    I developed lots of ECN-2 film in different developers.
    Using homemixed ECN-2 developer gives the best natural looking colors. E-6 developer should create good results because it uses CD3 also.
    Using C-41 chemicals creates some strange colors and much more grain.
    Using RA-4 developer also gives good results, as long as the developer is fresh and was not already used for paper.
    ECN-2 film gives low contrast. I mostly use it as internegative film for color slides.
    I found out that 3 minutes of developing time mostly is too short. Negatives are quite thin. They can be scanned and digitally postprocessed but not printed optically.
    So I normally develop between 5 and 6 minutes @100F which is much better for printing on RA-4.

    Examples: Fuji Eterna 500T in 'Atomal' b/w developer (lake), Fuji Eterna 250T in homemade ECN-2developer (fireworks), Fuji Eterna 250D in C-41 (flowers)


    Joachim
     

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  5. newcan1

    newcan1 Subscriber

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    Interesting, Joachim, that when you develop ECN-2 you get thin negatives. I did too, but increased the CD3 from 4g/L to 5.2g/L. Then I still develop at 106 deg F for 3 min.
     
  6. kb3lms

    kb3lms Subscriber

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    My recent experience agrees with Joachim. Making ECN-2 developer according to the Kodak formula with CD3 at 4g per liter gives a thinner, lower contrast negative. Haven't tried to print any, yet, but they look like they would scan nicely. So, newcan, it seems that raising the CD3 to 5.2g/l makes a hotter developer that produces a more normal looking contrast? I's guess it increases the dye saturation?
     
  7. newcan1

    newcan1 Subscriber

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    In my experience it makes for a denser negative. The contrast is still low, because the emulsion is low contrast. You can add say 10ml/L of H2O2 to the RA4 developer to boost contrast when developing the printing paper, but if you have any base fog in the paper, it may boost that a bit too.
     
  8. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    Did the test again. FRESH chemistry. Film: Very expired Fuji 500D.

    Test [1]
    HC110/B 4oz + E6 Color Developer 4oz. Developed at 100 degreesF for 3 minutes. Wash then BLIX for 5 minutes 100 degrees F.
    Results in B&W negative.

    Test [2]
    HC110/B 8oz at 70 degreesF 6 minutes.
    Wash
    E6CD 8oz at 70 degreesF 6 minutes.
    Wash
    BLIX at 70 degreesF 6 minutes.
    Results in Color Negative.

    These are unedited raw scans for your viewing pleasure. There is nothing ideal about any of this, so put away the flame throwers. Just noting what happens when B&W and color developer is mixed or separate during processing.

    HC+CD.jpg HC-THEN-CD.jpg
     
  9. JoJo

    JoJo Member

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    Cruzingoose, maybe you could tell us what result you are expecting with these experiments.
    Test 1 is a very low saturated color image in my eyes, no b/w image.

    Joachim
     
  10. newcan1

    newcan1 Subscriber

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    Cruzingoose, why not just mix a batch of ECN-2? I have 1,000 ft of very expired Reala 500D, and apart from speed loss (I think it's about 100 ASA now), it's still a perfectly good color film.
     
  11. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    ECN process with the green base makes for difficult and goofy color prints and grainy B&W prints. B&W develop & fix results in heavy base fog. I was curious and tried the mixed and separate developing and was surprised at the results. The B&W (almost no color) negatives print well on B&W paper, like B&W film should. The color result has significant grain when printed on B&W paper. I don't want to toss the film, just trying to make good use of it and in the process got one result that I expected, (color) and in the other, almost no color but with a useful B&W image where there should not be any.

    Both of these results were exposed at full rated speed of iso 500, plus I have very wide exposure latitude, from 32 to 6400 (on the camera dial) on the same roll with acceptable negatives. Green as they are, they print like Illford XP1.
     
  12. JoJo

    JoJo Member

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    I think the problem is your very expired film stock. I use film (Kodak Vision, Fuji Eterna), not older than 5 years and there is no grain, no fog and no color cast.
    But if your process works for you, it is okay.
    On the other side, ECN-2 film stock is mostly offered so cheap that it is not worth to use bad film.

    Joachim
     
  13. newcan1

    newcan1 Subscriber

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    Reala 500D does not have a green base - it's orange like other films. It could be that something has affected the film, or it could be your ECN-2 processing. Reala 500D was introduced in 2001 and discontinued in 2011, if that is what you have it might not be that old, but who knows how it was kept.

    I had a long thread on here a while back about ECN2 processing that might be helpful. I did find that certain tweaks to the formula helped me with small tank processing.
     
  14. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

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    My thought on the green base, if your process is hinting at a reversal process the base would go green.
     
  15. newcan1

    newcan1 Subscriber

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    For what it's worth, here's one of my test shots on the Reala 500D that I have, developed ECN-2
     

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  16. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    ECN film

    7 years ago when I got this film it did have an orange base and printed well, but in the move to SD it was boxed and recently re-discovered. The garage can get very warm out here and 110 deg is not uncommon. I'm sure I killed the film, but I just hate to throw almost 400' of it away. If I can use it as B&W or Lomo Color, I consider it salvageable. Perhaps in Germany, ECN is cheap, but I have not seen 35mm anything at 7 cents a foot or less in a very long time.
     
  17. Oxleyroad

    Oxleyroad Subscriber

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    I use old ECN2 film for B&W reversal. Will post my results in the technical gallery over the weekend. But I have to admit my film while stored in a shed it does not see north of 102degF. But has seen 4 warm summers and is still good.

    It also develops as a good negative image when developed in Caffenol.



    Don't throw it away!
     
  18. Ian Faisal

    Ian Faisal Member

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    Hey guys, how you recognize the expiry date for eterna?
    I have eterna vivid 250d but there is no expired date print in it
     
  19. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    Ive seen nothing in the film that would indicate age other than goofy base color. If you can deelop it and get printable color out of it, consider the film good.
     
  20. georgegrosu

    georgegrosu Member

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    "HC110,wash,color dev,wash,blix,wash results in a strong, nicely printable B&W negative. Just for info, the remjet coating did not come out with the HC110, but with the wash water."

    Cruzingoose,to detach backing layer (graphite) must have a pH of at least 9.25 - Processing KODAK Motion Picture Films Module 7 Process ECN-2 Specifications (p. 29)
    http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h2407.pdf
    Perhaps yours developer b&w does not have this ph.
    When I developed cine negatives in ECN 2 process as prebath I using a sodium carbonate solution 20 g / l.
    In conection with your test (process cine negative color in b&w developer + color) I appreciate that this combination is to decrease the contrast and saturation of the film.
    This mixture of two developers will act simultaneously on film.
    I do not know to tell which developer is faster, but where b&w developer action will not have dye.

    "My recent experience agrees with Joachim. Making ECN-2 developer according to the Kodak formula with CD3 at 4g per liter gives a thinner, lower contrast negative. Haven't tried to print any, yet, but they look like they would scan nicely. So, newcan, it seems that raising the CD3 to 5.2g/l makes a hotter developer that produces a more normal looking contrast? I's guess it increases the dye saturation?"

    In connection with increasing CD 3 concentration you can see here what says Kodak Processing KODAK Motion Picture Films, Module 8 Effects of Mechanical & Chemical Variations in Process ECN-2.
    http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h24_08.pdf
    If you are satisfied with yours results you can continue.
    Or, at the standard process ECN 2 to increase the time or temperature of the color developer and you'll probably get similar results.
    I'm the principle that chemical intervention is needed when one can no longer give a physical correction (time and temperature) at processing.
    In connection with the density of the fog - a greenish, and I seen a few coil made by students (probably bought the old do not know where) with this fog.
    Are 10 years since then and I seem to remember their positive came out pretty well.

    Joachim, good job. Success

    For all, I appreciate your tests.

    George
     
  21. georgegrosu

    georgegrosu Member

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    „Hey guys, how you recognize the expiry date for eterna?
    I have eterna vivid 250d but there is no expired date print in it”

    I have never seen any film box who having an expiration date.
    Not even negative (b&w or color), positive (b&w or color), sound negative, intermediate or title film.
    A colleague with I worked at lab Buftea before and working with film reception told me they do not pass the expiry date on the film.
    If there were problems with the film was given a phone to the seller (Kodak, Orwo) and telling you they expire lot of film problems.
    At you does not.
    No film you bought from a seller of the manufacturer.


    George
     
  22. Ian Faisal

    Ian Faisal Member

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    george we meet again
    yes, you right... i'm not buying those film from seller. and FYI fuji discontinued motion film...its so sad :sad:

    i read the link ecn-2 from kodak its kind different from mine
    what do you think about this formula?
    http://red-photo.xf.cz/ECP-ECN_PROCESS.pdf
    could i use it for my project

    i want try making DIY ecn developer but i got stuck when i try search CD-3 and CD-2
    where i could buy CD-2, CD-3 and send it overseas to Indonesia?

    if the seller from southeast asia, ill love it
     
  23. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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  24. georgegrosu

    georgegrosu Member

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  25. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    There are standards for big city muni systems, but in a rural community of 600, not so much. We just got a radium removal filter system a few years ago so we no longer have radioactive water. Please keep in mind our water was only a few rads over the limit. When I first moved here ans set up the darkroom, I could not figure out why my film and paper would not produce an image. Like developing film using inert ingredients, the water made my chemistry inactive. I have to make distilled water to mix chemistry. Tap water is ok for bulk wash n rinse but distilled water for final everything. If you look elsewhere here, you will find my posts about water.