FB papers _without_ toning

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by kaiyen, Mar 6, 2006.

  1. kaiyen

    kaiyen Member

    Messages:
    331
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Location:
    bay area, ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi all,
    So I'm doing so contact printing of some 5x7s I took this weekend. I'm doing this in an uncontrolled, public darkroom in a temporary trailer that is chaotic this time of year. As such, toning will not be practical.

    I have only ever printed on Ilford MG, but I wouldn't mind trying something different. I do not think a warm print would be appropriate for these images (more because I haven't tried warm printing enough to know when to use it).

    I know that my local shop (Keeble and Shuchat in Palo Alto, CA, if anyone happens to know their stock better) has Forte and Bergger. From what I"m reading, Forte isn't as good if one wants neutral prints. Am I reading this correctly? So I should go with Bergger? I'm printing too soon to do mail order.

    I did a couple of searches on these papers but most included a toning component.

    thanks,
    allan
     
  2. reellis67

    reellis67 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,887
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Central Flor
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Take a look at "The Photographer's Toning Book: The Definitive Guide" by Tim Rudman. He includes examples of many different papers used with different toners. It might give you a better idea of the results than you can get by reading written descriptions. Everyone has different opinions about what results are 'the best'.

    - Randy
     
  3. kaiyen

    kaiyen Member

    Messages:
    331
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Location:
    bay area, ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Randy,
    Thanks for the tip. I might look at that book later on. My point, however, was that I am _not_ doing toning, and that I want as neutral a print as possible. Maybe even cold.

    Oh, I"m locked into the developer at school, too. I think it's some dektol-esque stuff.

    allan
     
  4. Jeremy

    Jeremy Member

    Messages:
    2,767
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm curious why you don't want to tone? Toning will give you the most archivally sound final image if toned in selenium which, if matched with the correct paper will be a neutral tone.
     
  5. reellis67

    reellis67 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,887
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Central Flor
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Sorry, forgot to add that I do all my toning on the back porch, never in the darkroom. The fumes of some toners can fog paper and film, and the fumes of many toners are too strong for an enclosed space. As long as you are not in direct sunlight, you can use almost any toner. It is actualy preferable to tone in a well lit area so that you can compare an untoned print to the one in the toner.

    If you are looking for cold paper, try working with cold-tone developers like Ilford or Clayton. I am not familiar enough with the Kodak developers, but I think that Dektol is considered a semi-cold developer.

    - Randy
     
  6. avandesande

    avandesande Member

    Messages:
    1,246
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Tijeras, NM
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    You have to tone it to any ugly shade (way overtoned) if you want archivability. That little dip in toner until you see a color change doesn't make it archival.

     
  7. Loose Gravel

    Loose Gravel Member

    Messages:
    921
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2003
    Location:
    Santa Barbar
    Allan

    I don't like toning either. I guess it could make my pictures last forever, but I'm afraid they will last longer than I will, anyway. I don't think toning is very environmentally friendly and I know it is not very photographer friendly. Supplies are harder to get and it adds more time to the print cycle. Frankly, I need more time shooting and less time rocking trays. Years ago I looked for a paper that made a nice colored print without toning. Some neutral colored papers still have a slight green cast to them without toning. I finally went with Bergger VC CB. It is not neutral, however. Tones are warmish and the paper stock is neutral bright white.

    It might be hard to find a neutral to cold paper without toning. Oriental maybe. Mitsubishi?
     
  8. avandesande

    avandesande Member

    Messages:
    1,246
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Tijeras, NM
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Kentmere bromide in ethol lpd is about as neutral as it gets.
     
  9. kaiyen

    kaiyen Member

    Messages:
    331
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Location:
    bay area, ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Loose Gravel (sorry I don't know your name),
    Thanks for the tips. Have you tried the Bergger aginst Ilford? Maybe I should just stick to that. (I know, I should always stick with what I know, but it's fun sometimes to experiment).

    I just remembered that I happen to have a bottle of Clayton coldtone paper developer at home. Do neutral papers come out cold in them? Or do I need a coldtone paper to do that? What if I put a coldtone paper in the developer? will it come out frozen? ;-)

    All - I truly do understand that toning makes more prints archival, and that doing that and using my own print developer would be better. However, it's not practical, and it's not within the parameters of my situation or, in all honesty, question. Thanks for the help, though.

    take care,
    allan
     
  10. Loose Gravel

    Loose Gravel Member

    Messages:
    921
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2003
    Location:
    Santa Barbar
    Allan,

    When I was looking for a paper, I tried Kodak, Bergger, Ilford, Forte, Cachet, Agfa. I was looking for a VC fiber paper with a slight warm tone, good blacks, and no toning. I wanted white stock without tone. Of the dozen papers I tried, there were many very nice papers, but Bergger was outstanding.

    With all those variables, the only developer I used was Defender D55.
     
  11. mvjim

    mvjim Member

    Messages:
    84
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2003
    Location:
    New York Cit
    Forte make three papers - two warm tone and a cold or neutral tone. Their neutral tone with a cold tone developer should do the trick for you. Also toning in selenium does not archive your prints unless you get a complete color change and this wiould defeat your intentions.
     
  12. reellis67

    reellis67 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,887
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Central Flor
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    If I remember correctly, the really cold-tone papers of the past were due to cadmium(?), which is no longer inlcuded in modern papers due to environmental concerns. You can get cold-er blacks with cold tone developers though. Clayton makes one (ultra-cold I think) that I have a bottle of but have not had time to test. I have tested the Ilford cool-tone developer, but I would not call the results 'frozen'. Neutral papers should give you the feel you want when used with either of these developers, but the extent of blue-black tones depends on the paper's ability to react with the developer, so different papers will give different results.

    I use the Ilford cool-tone with MGIV FB paper and get a nice cool feel, again, not extremely cool-tone, but cooler than with other non-cooltone developers. Unfortunatley, the exact result is hard to describe and even harder (for me) to get on the computer. Perhaps someone can post some results that look like the real thing...

    - Randy
     
  13. kaiyen

    kaiyen Member

    Messages:
    331
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Location:
    bay area, ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Great. Thanks. I think I got a good plan.

    allan
     
  14. avandesande

    avandesande Member

    Messages:
    1,246
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Tijeras, NM
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Give ethol lpd a try. It changes warmth by dilution, and I leave it in an open tray all weekend without any problems.
     
  15. Gerald Koch

    Gerald Koch Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Agfa made a product called Sistan which helped prints achieve some permanence without the color change of toning. See if you can still find some. According to the msds the active ingredient was potassium thiocyanate 15-20%. It should be easy to make your own stock solution. 25 ml of this solution was diluted to 1 liter and prints were soaked in this before being dried. While not completely archival it is certainly better than nothing.

    I too hate toned prints.