Film developing EMERGENCY!!!!!

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Tom Stanworth, Sep 5, 2004.

  1. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    Hi,

    I just developed a roll of delta 400 35mm but the base has not cleared . I have dunked an hp5 plus leader in the fixer and it cleared in about 20 seconds and the fixer is not therefore at fault. It has been in fixer for 20 mins now and it aint budging!!!!!!!!! Can I do anything? ANyone come across this before???Faulty film??

    Tom
     
  2. JohnArs

    JohnArs Subscriber

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    Yes put it in Kodak Hypo clearing agent for a minute and wash it again. Should also work after some days if I remember correctly!
     
  3. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    Thanks, I'll try that. It looks like it has not been thru any chemistry at all apart from if you hold it to light you can see the images buried within the emulsion which just aint coming off. Whay does this happen?

    Tom
     
  4. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Describe your process from the beginning. What developer, temperature, time. It's hard to tell what went wrong if we don't know what was supposed to go right.
     
  5. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    21 degrees, Aculux2, 11 mins, 1 min stop bath, 5 mins in Hypam 1+4. All normal stuff. The image is clearly developed and visible through the base when held up to a bright light, but the base is still there, brown and not budging as if no fixer were used. Hoewever, when I took and HP5 plus leader and placed it in the same fixer it cleared in 20s. This is so weird!
     
  6. doughowk

    doughowk Subscriber

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    I have a roll of HP5 (developed at a lab) that has a dark brown base. It prints OK though the times are quite long. The negs are over 15yrs old so don't think its a fixer problem.
     
  7. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    the base is almost opaque. It wont print in a million years as it is unfortunately. It looks like it is headed for the bin. Annoying as it looks to be the second faulty film I have ever had. When fixed, the base should clear, even if I had put fix/stop etc in first....it should always clear and it isnt. I have use the exact same chems for other negs recently. I'm not a happy bunny. The other faulty fim was also Ilford (FP4 plus in 5x4 ) which was scratched before exposure and development. I sent it to Ilford to show them and never heard back from them....hmmmm.
     
  8. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    Have you tried a fresh fix batch mixed double strength?
     
  9. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    You might have dichoric fog, have you try rubbing the back of the negative with a sponge and water? if you do rub it and it comes off then it is dichoric fog.
     
  10. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    I'll try 1+1 fix. I dont think it is dishroic fog as the emulsion is still basically opaque. Looking at the emulsion side without a light source behind the film, It still looks liken the film has not even been thru chemistry. The emulsion is still all opaque and soft as you would expect! Held up to light it is only 90% opaque. The problem is emulsion side. I can see the images, frame numbers etc underneath....the rest of the emulsion, which the fixer just cannot clear.

    Did ilford upgrade delta 400 to New Delta 400 by the addition of superglue?
     
  11. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    I just tried to clear the original film leader (not been processed) and it is having none of it. It is completely impervious to the fix! I tried another leader in addition to the HP5 plus of yesterday, (delta 100 this time) and it has cleared fine. I can only conclude that this is a film fault. The only thing that could have have happened to the film is that it could have been somehow fogged. If this was the case, it would still clear in fix, leaving a bullet proof layer of silver. This stuff looks alsmost unprocessed. There are some patches around the edges of the film where it is more transluscent as if there is a patchiness to the tiny amount of clearing that has enabled me to at least see that there is a developed silver image withing the emulsion. It does not appear to be silver density that is casuing this opacity as it would not enable me to see a that teh silver image within has shadows, highlights etc as you would expect. I said after the some Fp4 plus sheet film had deep gouges/scratches (after seeing the processed images I looked at the unprocessed film and it was the same) and ilford did not respod to my letter and sample that I would not use their products again. I am going full time professional an absolutely cannot afford for this sort of rubbish to happen. Expiry of film was 2006 by the way and it has been stored ina fridge in its sealed container. One cannot ever be 100% sure that something weird has not happened to the film inside camera or film tank, but I cannot see that this is anything other than a films fault

    It is worth noting that I have not once had problems with supposedly dodgy Eastern European film or paper......Efke.....Forte etc

    Tom
     
  12. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    just noticed something really weird...the image is positive! It hard to see the image within the emulsion but it is undoubtedly posistive. All the film information down the edges is also positive...clear on the neg (but largely obscured by the semi opaque base). I just devd a roll from the same camera from the same shoot in the same chems in the same way (APX400 this time) and it is 100% fine. This is one for the photographic X files!
     
  13. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    Been watching this with interest.

    As far as I know, there are only two ways this could have happened: there was some sort of exposure to light during development (old-time E6 reversal exposure) or some sort of chemical anomaly that caused the same effect
    (see modern E6 reversal-exposure-less processing).
    That would explain why additional fixing had no effect.

    Is a contamination of chemicals possible?
     
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  15. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    All the same chems were used for subsequesnt APX400 roll and that was perfect. I have never used and E6 chems or reversal kits for B&W so no possibility of this sort of contamination. There are also some strage marks along the film edges in places which look almost look like in places teh base has cleared largely, but there is a sort of tidal mark nature to them (wavy and not with clearly defined edges) Light exposure cannot be ruled out, but It cannot be teh camera (other rolls fine) . Also as I used a motordrive at points, one would expect some to be less fogged than the oned sitting ready to be exposed in the camera between frames. This is not so. Changing bag is always double checked, proocessing tank likewise. If there has been some form of fogging, it looks too even. Film canister leak? To me it looks intrinsic to the film makeup. If it had fogged it would have looked like any fogged frame (darkslide removed off camer etc). This does not look like this. As I say, teh undeveloped leader from the same film does not clear either. I bet something strange happed during manufacture...This is unlike something I have ever seen...the base still has a that sort of unprocessed look to it...I may even try to print one, though the exposure would probably be a minute or two....
     
  16. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    The "reversal exposure" would have occurred DURING processing... somewhere around the mid-point (??) of development.

    Hmm... A thought ... did you use a developing tank? If it was a JOBO (??? I can't remember - did you say it was a 1500 series?), was the conical light trap in the cap (fits into the central "spindle") in place? That might explain light entering the tank during filling and emptying - if not during the development itself.
     
  17. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    I used a standard Jessops tank (similar to Paterson tank) taking two 35mm rolls. This is the same tank used for the second roll (APX) this morning. In both cases I used the rubber lid, so I cannot see how light could have got in part way thru exposure? It still would not explain why the undeveloped leader which I clipped off in the changing bag will also not clear, as this has not been touched by any chemistry.

    If anyone can explain this one I'll be really impressed.
     
  18. hitcher

    hitcher Member

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    Just a thought here, maybe the roll of film was exposed to some type of infusion of an outside chemical i.e. ; aerosol, or perfume. I have in my photolab experience had films that were treated as such and had some very strange results.

    Good luck with this one.
     
  19. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    I didn't think modern emulsions were susceptible to this, but it used to be possible to get a positive image by exposing the film to uniform light before exposing it to the imaging light. The uniform exposure had to be greater than that required for Dmax. There are in fact direct positive emulsions based on this phenomenon.

    If this is what happened, it could be a manufacturing defect, but one would expect other rolls of the same emulsion batch to have the same defect.
     
  20. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    I think Ed's got the answer, I remember having a similar problem in my early days caused by my novice fumbling loading a film in a darkroom leaking light and this gave me a partial positive image. The problem was compounded as I had been told by a member of the camera club that I had joined to dunk the film in a weak solution of hydrogen peroxide to help it clear and speed up the process. This caused dichroic fog suggested by Jorge as a possible problem. I cleared the dichroic fog by mixing a weak solution of Thoiurea and Citric acid and soaked the negatives in it. It's a very dodgy process for it reduces the emulsion to a jelly and if left too long in the solution the emulsion is removed from the backing material. I remeber trying this with an unwanted negative on the strip before I cleared the important negative.
     
  21. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    It certainly sound like it could be right, but again, it still does not explain why the unprocessed leader would not clear, when other leaders thru the same fixer did, as they should - why would it not clear, as it had not ben developed it should behave like any film leader when checking clearance time. For light to have got in, the only thing I can think of is that somehow the elastic bands around the arms did not seal in my changing bag, but again, I always check this prior to starting and check the lid for correct fit before removing my arms. This is certainly a first for me and does no good for confidence when handling valuable exposures (thankfully these were not of any commervial value!), whatever the cause of the fault. Thanks all for your great efforts to save the day, but all I can say is perhaps several factors cause this as the positive image would suit a light leak, but does not explain why the leader will not clear - even in Hypam 1+1!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2004
  22. mark

    mark Member

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    Les and Ed, I am trying to get my head around this. Are you saying what might have happened to toms film is like a Sabatier(SP) effect on a print?
     
  23. paul ron

    paul ron Member

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    are you trying to develope color film in a B&W chemistry? Perhaps you shoot the C41 B&W? It doesn't make any sence that it wouldn't clear. Check the text by the edge to see if infact you are developing B&W film?
     
  24. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    if it is dichrilic fog - it will have a metalic green sheen to it when you tilt the emulsion to the light. another way to remove it is by making some farmers reducer, after you mix the pt 1+2 together as directed, dunk your film in it. take it out in 15 seconds, wash it, and inspect it. you may have to repeat this a few times, or you can do a clip test with a piece of the film you don't need to see how long it takes to reduce your density enough to get a print out of the negatives.

    i had a similar problem when kodak came out with tmax developer. i was processing 4x5 film in hangers/tanks and was given bad advise from the people at kodak. i was told to use the regular tmax, instead of what i should have used ( tmax RS ). after processing my film i had a dense fog on the base - metalic green and the negatives were virtually bullet-proof. (aside from the fog ) the image on the film gave the same effect as a very thin negative that you can tilt to the light and get a postive image.

    i called the folks at kodak up ( again ), THEY told me i was outta luck and better just throw away the film. it was paul krot, the founder of sprint systems here in rhode island that told me to mix up the farmers reducer ( with his fixer of course! :smile: ) and it salvaged the film. when i called kodak back and told them a remedy for the problem ( considering they had given the bad advice twice! ) i also mentioned the person who i had talked with - and of course they told me there was never anyone by that name that worked at kodak :smile:
     
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  25. Peter Hogan

    Peter Hogan Member

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    This one is a bit of a twister...at first I thought it was probably faulty developer, but then you said you clipped a piece of leader before it went through any chemicals, and it still wouldn't clear in fixer. Inadverdant exposure to light during loading might contribute to the sabatiere effect, but it wouldn't produce fog like you describe. There's not many options left; it looks like you had faulty film. Incidentally, please don't fix film for 5 minutes - you lose your highlights! 2 minutes is more than enough. If you want to get rid of the extra dye in tabular grain films, prolonged fixing is not the best way - extra washing will do the trick ( or better still, let the film sit in 2/3 water baths for a while, then wash again) Good luck!
     
  26. Tom Stanworth

    Tom Stanworth Member

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    Yes, normally 2 minutes is enough...however, this time I went to 5 in a vain attempt to clear it, but to no avail. I still have no idea at all what has happened!