Finally start with alternative process

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by SadowskiPL, Jun 5, 2009.

  1. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    Hello,
    I finally want start to make prints in alternative processes like Carbo , Gum & Cyanotype traditional and new formula :smile:

    This stuff will be good for start?

    Set 3 flat brushes - white synthetic horse hair - 15,60 zł
    Arabic Gum 100 gr - 13,20 zł
    Paper to watercolour, block 18x24 cm, 10 sheets, 300 gram Fabriano Gamma (Polish production, 15% Cotton) - 3x 8,40 zł - 25,20 zł
    Oil-color Reeves 45 ml 4,60 zł / szt: 18,40 zł
    - 330 Deep blue
    - 470 emerald
    - 530 burn umber
    - 650 black

    Water paint Van Gogh: 6,70 zł / szt. = 33,50 zł
    - 403 Vandyke brown
    - 508 Prussian blue
    - 701 Ivory black
    - 339 Light oxide red
    - 254 Perm.lemon yellow

    RENAISSANCE Tempera 100 ml 4,90 zł / szt : = 9,80 zł
    - 22 / black
    - 20 / bronze van dyck
    Cost of this: 36,5$

    Chemistry: cz. -> Clean
    Ammonium Dichromate cz. - 100g
    Potassium Dichromate cz. - 100g
    Metabisulphite potassium cz. - 250g
    Potassium ferricyanide K3[Fe(CN)6] - 250g cz.
    Ammonium iron(III) citrate - 250g.cz.
    Ammonium iron(III) oxalate (NH4)3[Fe(C2O4)3].3H2O - 200g cz.
    NiSO4 cz. - 100g.
    Thymol - 100g.cz.
    Cost of Chemistry: 141zł = 44,7$

    I want make for this Digital Negs from film scans and my Digital Camera ( don't kill me for this) on Canon Pixia iP3000 printer.
    I don't have a LF Camera :tongue:

    Konrad Sadowski
     
  2. tim_bessell

    tim_bessell Member

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    Hi Konrad,

    I haven't done carbo or gum, but cyanotype. If you start with just cyanotype, you could make prints for a fraction of the price and gain much valuable experience that can be applied to the more complicated carbo and gum processes. Cyanotypes are actually quite elegant in there own right and you could print over it as part of a tri-color gum.

    If I am reading your list correctly, the paper you selected is only 15% cotton; you should use a paper that is 100% cotton rag or select one that has been proven to work with the process you are using. For cyanotype, I use Arches Aquarelle Bright White water color paper.

    Have fun!
     
  3. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    Canson Montval will be good for cyanotype?
    hmmmm...
    Arches Fin, Canson, 300 g, 24x32cm, 12 ark. - 39,79zł / 1$=3,15zł
    Fabriano Gamma (15% Cotton) 18x24cm 10ark - 8,40zł
    I have only 300zł for all.. :/
    150zł - Chemistry
    150zł - Papers/paint/pigments/brushes
    :/

    A 1000grams of Arabic Gum and 3000ml of destilled water, will be ok ?
     
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  4. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    OK...
    Arabic Gum - 1kg is now in my hands :D
    In Wednesday, chemistry.

    What amount of Water i must add to 1kg of Arabic Gum ( hehehe 1kg = 45zł = 14$ )
     
  5. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    SadowskyPL,

    Start with Cyanotype, learn how to make negatives (see HybridPhoto and ask there for digital related stuff) then you can use those negatives to make gum prints. Gum is very flexible, by testing you can just find the correct parameter set for printing from Cyanotype negatives. Canson Montval is good for Cyanotypes, it was the first paper I had used. Carbro is a little tricky and I'm not sure if current materials are OK for carbro prints. You can just make carbon prints later, by pouring your own tissue or (hard to you as I figure) purchase ready made tissue from Bostick & Sullivan. That's completely doable. But first train yourself with Cyanotype. It looks simple but you need the discipline to make high quality cyanotypes; it will give you the "modus operandi" useful for many other alt processes, or, if you like; it will tame you and make you ready for more tricky (because of vast amount of parameters) processes like Gum and/or Carbon...

    Keep it simple for the first attempts -> if not you may loose yourself in the details.
    Good luck!
    Loris.
     
  6. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    BTW, 1+2 gum+water or 1+3 gum+water are both fine. But, 1+3 is a little thin to my liking; I personally prefer to use 1+2 gum+water... Put Sodium Benzoate (I use a gram per 100g of gum, much less will be enough but I do that for ease; it's hard to weight sub-gram amounts) or Formalin (1-2ml per liter of gum solution is enough) to preserve the gum solution. If you do not, it will rot in a couple of days and smell horrible!

    You don't need tempera or oil colors (or acrylics); use tube watercolors or dry pigment...

    Best gum paper (especially for starters) is Fabriano Artistico. Unfortunately it's not suitable for Cyanotypes unless you acidify the paper before...
     
  7. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    See Katharine Thayer's (and Hamish Steward's) sites for gum printing... But don't take all info about gum as absolute; with gum many things depends on your particular materials and working style. You have to test and find the right method that works for you. Read as much as possible!
     
  8. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    Oil Color is for GumOil process.
    Thanks for tips :wink:
    Thymol will be ok for preserve?
    for Cyanotype I want use a New formula.
    The Formalin what i have is Farmaceutical :smile:
     
  9. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    First do some gum then you'll try gumoil. :wink: You can't do nice gumoils without learning gum first. It's a messy process BTW; you spend a lot of paper towels and you get cramps in your hand/fingers while cleaning excess oil paint from the print. I did a couple and decided that I don't like it at all!

    Thymol is fine. But since you need an extra chemical (alcohol) to dissolve it (and that's an extra step too), I don't use it. Also it's more expensive to me where I live. Sodium Benzoate and Formalin can be obtained for a song here in Istanbul...

    New Cyanotype is very good, but you'll have to use best papers -> it's very finicky when it comes to paper choice. A tip: If you get chemical fogging with your paper of preference, add 2 drops of 40% citric acid per ml of coating solution (don't add citric acid to the stock solution!), probably it will cure the problem.
     
  10. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    ok...
    That steps will be good?
    Cyanotype -> Gum -> GumOil -> Carbo ??
     
  11. PVia

    PVia Member

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    Don't be in a hurry...just work on one process at a time to start with, keep a notebook filled with copious notes.

    Getting good negatives, whether D or A, will take quite a bit of time to dial in. Then, experimenting with test strips, paper, technique, etc will keep you busy for quite a while.

    Alt process takes quite a big commitment of time, materials and energy but the results can pay back considerably if you're dedicated and patient.
     
  12. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    I wanted to buy PDN, but his price is for me too high, taking under attention the dollar exchange.
    1$ = 3,20zł :/
    This would facilitate me very preparation of negatives.

    Ps: I Using Translator....
     
  13. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    Ok, i Made a solution for Cyanotype II New Formula(with a 0,1g Amonnium Dichromate) and the solution is a prussian blue color...
    Now the solution is cooling for crystalise. :smile:
     
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  15. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    The solution had to be dark green. There's something terribly wrong there...
     
  16. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    hmm I read a alternativephotography.com ...
    [...] But if there are significant amounts of iron(II) impurities in your chemicals, it may be coloured blue due to a trace of Prussian blue formed in suspension. [...]


    ups...
    Potassium ferricyanide K3[Fe(CN)6] - i have K4[Fe(CN)6] ( yellow color not Red.. )
    >.<
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2009
  17. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    It seems you fell into the traditional ferr(i)cyanide - ferr(o)cyanide confusion. You want ferr(i)cyanide (red); ferrocyanide will form prussian blue immediately. That mixture is useless, get rid of it and remix with the correct chemicals.

    I don't remember if I said that before but; Cyanotype II is sensitive and won't work well with chemically impure supports. You have to use fine quality pure non-buffered paper. If you experience chemical fog with the paper of your choice try to put 2 drops 40% citric acid per ml of coating solution... (Do not put citric acid in the stock solution!) This won't work with heavily buffered paper; you'll have to acidify the paper prior printing if you absolutely insist on using it.
     
  18. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    hmmm...
    What source of UV light will be good ( power ~400W max )?

    - Philips HPWT BL 220V/ 125W E27 PH - ( 340-380nm) - 183zł
    - HPA 400/30S R7S SOLAR PHILIPS 400W - (315-400nm ) - 115zł
    ??
    Now I have only a 2x 18W BLB ...
     
  19. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    I know this....
     
  20. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    Sadowski, use 60cm (24") Philips /05 series fluorescent bulbs. TLK 20W /05, or TLK 40W /05 bulbs are fine. Just make sure to match the bulbs with high quality electronic ballasts. (No magnetic ballasts!) Show the technician the bulbs, they will be able to give you compatible ballasts. You want a bulb that peaks around 360nm... I can get 40W bulbs for about USD 4.50 each in Istanbul. Hope they're equally well priced in Poland! 8 of these (placed 2cm apart, allowing 10cm space between the bulbs and printing frame's glass) will give you exactly 40x60cm exposure/printing area. They have at least 3000h practical life-span (they will work up to 8000-10000h with gradually lessening yield), so it's a one-time purchase unless you don't break them.
     
  21. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    In Poland for one 24" BLB chinese bulb -> 10$ -> 33zł >.<
    Philips cost something about 15$
     
  22. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    Don't go for BLB bulbs; you need BL bulbs... They're better (higher output more yield) and usually cost less than BLB ones...
     
  23. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    Hey,
    The pack of ten Narva Świetlówka, promiennik UVA, LT 18W/009UV (BL) will be OK ?
     
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  24. Loris Medici

    Loris Medici Member

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    Ask them about the spectral power distribution; if it's peaking around 360nm then it's fine.

    According the info at http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/b.pl/lt|18|009|uv-filtered~narva.html it's OK. But ask anyway to be sure.

    These are 25mm diameter lamps, so with 10 lamps spaced 2cm apart you'll have 43x60cm printing area. (Position the bulbs allowing at least 10 - 12cm space between the printing frame glass and the bulbs. If not, you may experience light banding / uneven lighting.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2009
  25. SadowskiPL

    SadowskiPL Member

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    Can I insert a strong UV source to a 35mm-6x9cm enlarger?
    I want to enlarg a 35mm and 6x6 negatives for alt. process by "UV Enlarger".
    Or build LF enlarger with UV.
    The scanning or doing a paper negs lub inkjet negs cost to munch...
    UV Source labout 125-400Wat ?