Fine Art XXL lenses 550mm and 1100mm

Discussion in 'Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by Robert Hall, Oct 13, 2004.

  1. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

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    I just recieved this from Schneider on the new 550mm and 1100mm lenses...

    The 1100mm lens should be available after the first of the year.
    Delivery of the 550mm lens is not know at this time. Educated guess . . . June '05.
    04- 1003433 > 11/550 COPAL 3 SHUTTER FINE-ART-XXL $13,834.00 list
    04- 1003431 > 14/1100 COPAL 3 SHUTTER FINE-ART-XXL $11,167.00 list
    04- 1003432 > 14/1100 CYLINDER MOUNT BK 73 FINE-ART-XXL WITH IRIS DISC SET $11,667.00 list

    I hope they are coated with real gold!

    Here is a flyer I recieved from them...

    http://www.RobertHall.com/XXL.pdf
     
  2. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    In addition to the prices, the other consideration is what camera will handle an 1100 mm lens unless this is a telephoto design. The Lotus 12X20 and up will handle 1100 at infinity. The Wisner 16X20 will handle 1500. That is just about enough bellows extension to make a really good sail here in Doodah.
     
  3. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

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    My canham 12x20 would handle the 43 inch draw, but you're right about the wind, not to mention the bellows sag, but I was wondering what they're thinking, who has the money to shell out for a $14,000 lens?
     
  4. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Ah hell, and here I thought Schneider had made a smart move. Looks like I was wrong, why announce and make lenses for ULF which are unreacheable for the majority and wont bebought but by a few rich doctors or lawyers?

    This does not make sense, dont they know the mayority of the persons using ULF are either hobbiests or guys trying to break in the fine art market? I cant afford either of those lenses, and even if I could, I would feel stupid buying $25,000 worth of lenses. There is no lens IMO that is worth this much, even if I was rich.....
     
  5. ReallyBigCameras

    ReallyBigCameras Advertiser Advertiser

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    Jorge,

    Keep in mind the prices Robert listed are LIST PRICES and may be considerably higher than the actual selling prices for these lenses. I have no idea what the actual selling prices will be, but keep in mind the LIST PRICE for the 110mm Super Symmar XL is $3427. Anybody here pay anything close to that much for their 110 XL? I know I sure didn't.

    I'm not saying the new Fine Art XXL lenses will be reasonably priced, or even affordable for us working stiffs, but they might not be quite as outrageous as the prices Robert quoted.

    Kerry
     
  6. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Hmmm, you got a good point, Badger is selling the 110XL for $1400 and some change....but still, even at 60% discount these are 5 and $6000 lenses. Even at those prices, I think I am sticking with my Nikon 450 and if I want longer I will look for a process lens and have SK Grimes put it on a shutter.

    BTW, welcome to APUG Kerry, I hope you decide to stick around more, your experience is valuable to all of us.
     
  7. Francesco

    Francesco Member

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    I once saw an ad in MrCad in the UK for a new 1000mm Apo Germinar in Copal 3 for about 2000 bucks I think. It was in that ad for a long time, probably still there too. Not much demand for huge lenses even at relatively attractive prices. Now, who wants to sell put options on these new Schneider lenses?
     
  8. bobfowler

    bobfowler Subscriber

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    What's missing from those prices is the cost of inevitable divorce proceedings...
     
  9. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Well, I have a 1000 mm f/14 Artar in an Ilex #5 shutter that I use on the 12X20" Canham and estimate its value to be about $2000. Can't see that the new 1100mm f/11 Fine Art Lens offers $10,000 improvement in performance since coverage is about the same. And since apo lenses of this type are fairly common it is hard to see where the market is for the long Schneider lens.

    The 550mm f/11 Fine Art Lens, with over 850mm of coverage, is another matter. Love to have that one.

    Sandy
     
  10. esearing

    esearing Subscriber

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    Any one know of a source for optics math? Seems you could buy glass fairly cheap and build your own lens. I was originally thinking modifying a small telescope but you might not have enough image circle.
     
  11. John McCallum

    John McCallum Member

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    That's a good point. Badger Graphics gave a better price for my Super Symmar XL, well below recommended list. There is bound to be an amount of new-product-hype associated with the 'Fine Art XXL', and prices to suit.
    Personally I'd find it difficult to justify 10 x the price of a second hand alternative model. Would it really improve your image THAT MUCH??
     
  12. Michael Mutmansky

    Michael Mutmansky Member

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    Schneider is missing the point!

    What really gets me is the effort that Schnerider has put into the lenses must be considerable, and they made lenses that have a limited market of maybe 50 units worldwide.

    Now, if Schneider were smart, they would recognize that the era of ultra sharp ULF lenses is over, because nobody uses them for copywork anymore. If they would simply lighten up their standards a bit, they could produce lenses that would have the entire LF/ULF world clamoring for them.

    What I mean is, go back to the origins of the optics industry, and bring out some small, multicoated lenses in modern shutters that have very wide coverage specifications, something like the Hypergon or WA Dagor, which they still have the rights to I presume. Optical designs like the old Pantogon and the Boyer WA and even the old Angulon lenses could all be modified into exceptional ULF and pictorial (read: non-industry, non-copywork) lenses for cameras from about 5x7 on up. (Yes, I know the Pantogon is a Rodenstock design, but you get my point)

    These things would be small, light portable, and of quite simple optical design (with the exception of the Hypergon, I suppose), and could be sold at a price that would be reachable by the average LF/ULF shooter.

    They could just about corner the market if they reintroduced a line of Angulon or Dagor lenses that met all the needs of the contact printers out there, and the potential market would be at least 10,000x the potential for the XXL lenses.

    I'd love to see a modern 180-210mm lens that covers 8x10 with ample movement. Forget about the ship anchor 210 SS XL, give me a modern Angulon!

    Boy, I just can't believe they don't see the market potential for lenses like these. The reality is that almost nobody buying lenses for a camera larger than about 4x5 (or possibly you could push this to 5x7) has any need for anywhere near the sharpness that Schneider is designing into their lenses.

    I am planning on discussing this with the Schneider reps at Photo Expo next week, and maybe it will light a spark of thought in their heads that may benefit the LF/ULF community.


    ---Michael
     
  13. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Well I hope you do light a fire under them, as good and as beautiful these new lenses are, I would not buy them even if I had won the lottery.
     
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  15. John McCallum

    John McCallum Member

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    Way to go Michael! As you say, perhaps it is a company that has developed their manufacturing processes to such a state, they feel compelled to push ever more complex and refined products out there. Like you I'd be thrilled to find a new simple, compact lens with ample movements and reasonable optics ..... at an Affordable price!
    This is the way to grow the market for their products. Not by producing the Rolls Royces that will inhibit any considering entering the world of LF photography.
    Of course Schneider have a different reputation to uphold. Perhaps they are leaving market growth to the other lens manufacturers .... or do not feel it is necessary(?)
     
  16. fingel

    fingel Member

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    I believe that after WW2 all the patents of the German optical companies became public domain. So you could have anyone producing those pre war designs, and example is Nikon produced tesser lenses (200m, 300m 450m) Fuji C series 300, 450, 600 which I believe is an Goerz Artar derivative. While they couldn't use the name Daggor, I don't see why anyone couldn't use the lens design to produce a modern version.

    Thinking about it, the Cosina guy seems to like to resurrect old style equipment like M42 mount lenses, and LTM, maybe he would be interested in creating a modern Daggor large format lens? :smile:
     
  17. ReallyBigCameras

    ReallyBigCameras Advertiser Advertiser

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    Jorge,

    Thanks for the kind words. I'll try to post when I think I can contribute, but my time is stretched real thin days. Too many irons in too many fires. I have visited the APUG forums in the past, but this thread is my first active participation.

    Kerry
     
  18. ReallyBigCameras

    ReallyBigCameras Advertiser Advertiser

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    Michael,

    After Cooke introduced their new portrait lens, I had a very long email exchange with Barbara Lowry about the possibilities of a modern update of the Cooke Series VIIb - multicoated and in Copal shutters. I'd love to have a multicoated 158mm Series VIIc in a Copal NO. 1 shutter for my 4x10 camera.

    I do agree that there is a big void in the 180mm range for 8x10. It seems really odd to me given the popularity of the 90mm focal length on 4x5. And at 180mm, you don't need enormous angular coverage for most 8x10 applications. I would think 90 - 95 degree coverage (360 - 393mm image circle) would be usable for many landscape situations. By keeping the coverage reasonable and not going for 120 degrees, the size, weight and cost of the lens could be reasonable. This is where a modern update of some of the classic designs (wide field guass, for example) could really shine.

    Kerry
     
  19. ReallyBigCameras

    ReallyBigCameras Advertiser Advertiser

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    The Tessar, Protar, Celor (Artar), Dagor, Planar, etc. patents all expired long before WWII. These designs all date from the 1890s through early 1900s. Most had expired by the late 1910s or early 1920s.

    So, patents have not been an issue concerning these designs for over 80 years. The real issue isn't technical - these designs are pretty simple by today's standards (which is part of the appeal). The real issue concerns manufacturing cost, return on investment, potential market, etc.

    Kerry
     
  20. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm with you here. My 8x10" lens selection currently consists of a 240/420 Symmar and a 165 Angulon. Removing the front of the Angulon gives me about 300mm. Resolution is still good enough for contact prints, which is all I do in this size anyway.

    So what I would like is a 500/900 convertible Symmar or similar - NOT a 500mm super-duper lens which costs more than all my other camera gear combined...
     
  21. acroell

    acroell Member

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    Michael, given that the application of these lenses is 99.99 % contact printing you certainly have a point there. A maximum resolution in the vicinity of 10-15 lp/mm, but with high contrast, is all that is needed.

    I'd like to point out though that the 550mm actually IS a Wide Angle Dagor type, at least judging from the lens diagram shown in the specs, and the 1100mm is an Artar type. Both have been around for 100 years or more. So designwise (as a starting point) they did what you suggested.

    Arne
     
  22. Michael Mutmansky

    Michael Mutmansky Member

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    Arne,

    You are right, but to what market? 20x24 shooters and the occasional Polaroid camera? What is the real market potential of a lens for this market? As I said, maybe 50 units, tops (not per year, total for ever more).

    The market for 11x14 shooters must be at least 50-100x as large, and the market for 8x10 shooters has to be 500-1000x as large, and probably even larger.

    The optics we are talking about are so darn simple that they must be relatively easy to manufacture. If Schneider is willing to consider a product with 50 potential purchasers, they must be open to the idea of the potential for the market for 8x10 and other formats.

    When Cooke started to introduce the new lines a few years ago, I thought that maybe things would move in the right direction, and maybe it'll be a company like Cooke that will come out with an inexpensive wide angle lens line that will be a good price, and meet the needs of the contact printers out there.

    One can only hope.
     
  23. acroell

    acroell Member

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    Michael, I fully agree that the audience is very limited given the choice of focal lengths and the prices. As Sandy pointed out, this holds especially for the 1100mm since there are viable used alternatives with the long Apo-Artars, -Ronars, -Germinars etc. available on the market. I just wanted to point out that Schneider actually did use old and proven designs, which you had asked for - just not for the prices (even street prices) and focal lengths that you had in mind. I don't really want to bash Schneider about it as I think any effort to bring out new lenses for the LF users these days is laudable , even if its for a superlimited audience. I actually hope they are successful with this so they are not discouraged serving the LF community with new offerings. I do agree that, say, something like a 300mm version of the 550mm for 11x14 might have a much greater appeal and market, and Cooke apparently is going more along that route - the series XV looks like a steal compared to the XXL lenses (it has of course much less coverage, being optimized for 8x10)).
     
  24. Michael Mutmansky

    Michael Mutmansky Member

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    Arne,

    Don't misunderstand my intentions with my post. I'm not trying to bash Schneider, only to understand exactly what they are thinking, as I don't see the logic in it for my understanding of the ULF market. Besides, if others tell Schneider they want a small line of lenses for contact printing, they may actually get enough encouragement to consider this approach for a lens line.


    ---Michael
     
  25. Eric Jones

    Eric Jones Member

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    Hello All,

    The Schneider Fine Art XXL Lens Prices have been posted on the Badger Graphic Web site:

    Fine Art 1100mm/14 XXL $3595.00
    Fine Art 1100mm/22 XXL 3995.00
    Fine Art 550mm/11 XXL 4795.00

    Remember, the first reports from the field are usually wrong, lol.

    Best to everyone
     
  26. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    hmmm, I dont get it, the f14 is cheaper than the f22, anybody care to take a guess as to why?

    And, $4800 for the 550, who are they kidding my Nikon 450 was $650 new on E bay..... I think I am going to go for the James Chinn camera and all the holders he can make instead (that is if Jim gets off his ass anytime this century.. :smile: )