Fixing after toning

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by FrankB, Jul 28, 2004.

  1. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    In Tim Rudman's toning book he says that some toners require a fix afterwards to prevent the image printing out over time. However, other than recommending that it should be done with straight thio rather than rapid fixer, he doesn't actually state how this should be done.

    Is it just the same as fixing after development? Could anyone give me some suggested times / dilutions / tips for doing this with thio? (Up until now I've only used branded products and liquids at that!)

    All assistance gratefully received!

    Thanks

    Frank
     
  2. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    which toners?
    With Nelson"s gold you will need a fixer with a hardner; fix after toning , HCA, wash. For this type of fixer we have been using Kodak's version.

    With lith or psuedo lith, a very weak fixer for just a few minutes, HCA, wash.

    Plain old fashion hypo should be made up fresh. 16 oz of sodiuim thiosulfate to 64 oz of water (125 de )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2004
  3. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    I'm thinking of having a play with split sepia toning; full bleach then a light tone. Also Agfa's chemical datasheet says something about fixing after Viradon.

    I'm new to this end of things (and often hard of understanding!) so please be gentle!
     
  4. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    I have some Viradon on hand but haven't used it yet, however, i would just use a regular fix for a few minutes then wash, hca, wash.

    Other than the lith and pseudo lith processes i would just use regular fixer, there are a few other toning processes that use fixer after but you are not using those and they are very exotic ones at that. the excempt would be gold toners, we have used gold without post fixer, but again I would just use straight hypo for a few minutes, wash, hca, wash.
     
  5. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    I've never fixed a print after toning in my life but I generally only use Selenium, Tetenal Gold and Sepia. I've no experience with Nelson's gold and would take Ann's advice if you plan to use it.

    If you are planning to split sepia and fully bleach you are likely to loose the highlights depending on which paper you use. Try this tip; mix a very weak solution of the bleach,1 to 30 or 40 is a good starting point. Bleach the print for about 20 seconds, you need to experiment with this for it depends on the tonality of the highlight mine are just on the paper. Remove the print and wash then tone it in the toning solution, 5 minutes will do. You will see no significant change in the print other than the highlights will have been slightly bleached and then sepia toned. Wash the print again and place in a full strength bleach and leave until it's bleached to the degree you wish. The highlights will not have bleached any further than they were after the first bleach. Wash yet again and place in the toner until it's the colour you want, remove and wash for the final time.

    The reason for the first bleach it simply to enable you to hold the highlight just where you printed it in the first place and the bleach converts the silver halides so that they cannot be affected by the second bleach.

    When split sepia toning the degree of bleaching will have a significant effect on the outcome so do experiment with how much bleaching you apply.

    Have fun.
     
  6. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Some toners leave silver compounds in the emulsion, which can darken over time. This is especially the "bleach & redevelop" type toners. To avoid changes over time, the print should be fixed after toning.

    If the bleach is KBr-containing, plain hypo is exellent: about 100g sodium thiosulfate (crystaline) to 1 liter of water. Add some sodium sulfite to prolong the life of the fixer to more than overnight. Use sodium bisulfite instead to get an acidic fixer. I use plain hypo for most of my post-process fixing, and for POP and van Dyke prints.

    Any Iodine-bearing bleach or toner should probably be fixed in an ammonium thiosulfate fix. This however has a nasty habit of bleaching the image, so must be used with care. Long treatment in plain hypo is generally better.
     
  7. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    Very many thanks for all the help, especially Les (I'll definitely be trying that one!).

    Ole, how long should I leave the print in the thio solution?

    All the best

    Frank
     
  8. John McCallum

    John McCallum Member

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    Frank, I've recently done quite a lot of Veradon toning over the last 6 mnth and found that if i'm not careful, the print can tend to lose contrast and go more 'milk' chocolate in colour during washing and even after drying, over time. Going out on a limb here I think the reason is that Veradon toning is normally halted at the colour desired, resulting in only partial silver halide conversion.
    On Agfa MC111 glossy which is the paper I use most, giving the print a Selenium tone before Veradon seems to work very well. By comparison with just Vrdn toning, these prints haven't changed. Also, the increased DMax counters the reduction by the Vrdn and gives the print an attractive 'richer' quality that I really like. But you've got to experiment a little with timings. Selenium tone for too long and it will convert all the silver halide, and the Vrdn will have no affect. Too little time and the Selenium won't have enough affect. I've been using Selenium this way at 1:10 for about 4-6 mins, this is getting close to giving archival properties.
    When I use Veradon toner, I do it outside in good light if possible in a white tray with an quivalent wet print to compare the colour change. Keep checking the print by taking out of the Vrdn and comparing with untoned wet print. Have a tray or washer of water ready and anticipate the colour change you're after because it will continue to change for a little while during the final wash.

    edit: also a peg helps (for the nose :smile:)
     
  9. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    Wonder if Veradon is similar to Kodak Brown toner that will continue to tone while washing? I don"t know, but it makes sense as it is in the same family. With KBT a "stop bath" of sodium sulphite, or HCA is recommend to stop the toning process before washing.

    Perhaps that would work with Veradon?
     
  10. John McCallum

    John McCallum Member

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    Ahuh great suggestion. Veridon definately does continue to tone during washing Ann. So using a stop bath would be easier than trying to pull the print early and having to anticipate further toning.
     
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  11. john_s

    john_s Member

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    Agfa recommends a sodium sulphite bath to "stop" Viradon toning. And I'm sure it would make washing more efficient. It also seems to help clear the yellow tint to the paper quickly
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2004
  12. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Viradon - and at least most other polysulfide toners - continue working in the wash water. To stop the toning and remove the milky film of elemental sulfur on the surface of the print, use a sulfite bath. Strong HCA is fine, or just a solution of 200g sodium sulfite in one liter water. Same as you would use to clear polaroid T55 negatives (I use the same soup for both).

    When fixing in plain hypo, a longish fixing is necessary. Depending on temperature, agitation, concentration, type of print and required "archivability", about 20 minutes should do it.
     
  13. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    Many thanks to everyone for all the assistance!

    I'll have a play and let you know what happens...