Fogged paper; how much benzotriazole?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Matthew Gorringe, Feb 5, 2008.

  1. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    Hello,
    I am trying to save some fogged Ilford Galerie Grd3. Hard to describe the extent of fogging but I would say it's more than slight but not severe.

    I have tried adding a 1% solution of BTA to my Dektol (1:2) in varying amounts but have seen no effect so far up to 70ml BTA 1% per litre of working strength solution.

    Developing strips of the fogged paper alongside some fresh Grd2 Galerie and increasing the BTA up to the amount mentioned above I can see no difference between 20ml/litre, 50ml/litre and 70ml/litre.

    How far can I go with BTA? Is this experience normal?

    Thanks very much, Matt.
     
  2. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    Matt, if you are developing the print for longer than one minute the fogging is likely to return.
     
  3. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    Thanks for the tip Les, ouch.

    I normally develop this paper for 3 minutes in fresh developer to get full contrast. I'll try a shorter time at 1:1.

    Matt.
     
  4. Rich Ullsmith

    Rich Ullsmith Subscriber

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    That's too bad, its beautiful paper. But it is not irreplaceable. If your time is more valuable than your money, playing with your developer is probably not worth it. Sometimes a quick bleach and fix of your print will snap it up and get you a white. And this paper will also lith, and I have found that a little fog is not noticeable.
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Matt;

    If you can get it, phenyl-mercapto-tetrazole is more effective in these situations.

    PE
     
  6. snallan

    snallan Member

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  7. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    Thanks for the great advice everyone.

    I've got about $300 of paper that I would like to save so a little experimentation is probably worth the time and effort. Besides, I might learn something. On the other hand I am resigned to having to replace it in order to complete the portfolio I'd started printing on Grd2 knowing I will probably end up with shift in image tone and may not be able to recover all the contrast.

    It might be some time before I can report back (2nd baby due on Tuesday) but I'll make sure I let people know how I get on.

    Matt.
     
  8. Cor

    Cor Member

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    PE

    Could you elaborate a bit on this compound (it's 1-Pehnyl-1H-tetrazole-5-thiol, CAS 86-93-1 right?).

    So it works better than BZT?

    No shift in final colour?

    How do you make a stock solution and at what end concentration does one use it?

    It smells bad (rotten egg)?

    Thanks,

    Best,

    Cor
     
  9. maxbloom

    maxbloom Member

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    All mercapto compounds smell bad. The compound that makes shit smell like shit IIRC is a mercapto ester.

    I'm also curious if this is usable in an Amidol recipe?
     
  10. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    A friend of mine has turned me onto an old formula by Defender called 58D. It has Chlorohydroquinone in it and I can get virtually fog free prints from batches of old paper that fog pretty badly in other developers.
    Worth trying.
    - Thomas
     
  11. Sanjay Sen

    Sanjay Sen Member

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    Thomas, do you happen to have the formula for the Defender D-58? Google didn't seem to bring up anything. I have a pack (or two) of Agfa paper that is fogged and am loathe to throw it out - nobody wants it either. This would be a good experiment.
     
  12. Cor

    Cor Member

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    ..sorry, a bit late here but anyway: (picked it searching the internet)

    Here is the formula from the “Photo-Lab-Index” 1949 version

    Defender 58-D
    Water 750ml
    Sodium Sulfite 16.0grams
    Chlor-hydroquinone 4.0grams
    Sodium Carbonate 16.0Grams
    Potassium Bromide 0.6grams
    Water to make 1Liter

    Develop for at least 4 minutes. With more exposure and less time in the developer tones will be browner but some deepness in the shadows will be sacrificed.

    Chlor-hydroquinone stays active even down into the 50s°F range. Much lower then Hydroquinone.

    I would like to hear of your results, if you use this formula.


    ............

    Good luck,

    Best,

    Cor
     
  13. Cor

    Cor Member

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    For completeness: here is the link were I found the info
    http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/one.asp?ID=10211&PgNo=&GID=10211&CID=5

     
  14. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    And the big problem here is that Chloro HQ is no longer manufactured AFAIK. If it is made, it would be very expensive. If anyone finds it, let me know.

    PE
     
  15. Sanjay Sen

    Sanjay Sen Member

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    Thanks, Cor, for posting the formula. It will take me a while to gather the chemicals, but it should be worth a try - provided I can find Chloro-hydroquinone, as PE mentioned it is not manufactured anymore.
     
  16. jgjbowen

    jgjbowen Member

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    PE

    I just ordered some from www.alfa.com
     
  17. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    John;

    Thanks. I did a search a year ago and could not find it. I'll have to check it out.

    PE
     
  18. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I posted this formula awhile ago. It took some searching to find a distributor of this chemical. The cost is a little less then a $1 a gram with the extra shipping charge. I bought all they had at the time. Good to see some could be bought recently.

    I've had alot of success with papers as old as the teens. Tom has seen some of the work and can vouch for this. Edwal 111 (formula can be found in articles) was made with Glycin and Chloro HQ. This formula didn't fog my paper either. Have not tried it on anything older then 1949 though.

    I hope to hear more on the printing of old papers and would like to see other formulas. Good Luck

    Randy
     
  19. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Yep, Randy's prints were mostly squeaky clean and gorgeous.

    I'm going to try the 58D developer tomorrow with some Agfa Portriga Rapid from the 80s, along with some Velox that expired in 1947. The Velox has actually looked great in Ansco 130, and I intend to try it with Amidol too.

    - Thomas

    - Thomas
     
  20. JohnFinch

    JohnFinch Member

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    Here's an old paper restorer that I have used in the past for this very same problem. The advantage of this one is that I always have Pot Bromide in my cupboard because it's used in many developers I make.

    Water 40C 700ml
    Potassium bromide 100g
    Water to make 1 litre


    Just add 10ml of Paper Restorer solution to your working strength developer, at most 20ml. Develop the print for as short a time as possible or you may experience chemical fogging. Another way to use this restorer is to immerse the exposed paper in this solution for 1 minute followed by development,
    again for as short a time possible.

    Hope this helps.

    John
    Pictorialplanet.com
     
  21. Paul Verizzo

    Paul Verizzo Member

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    A losing battle...

    I had a big roll of paper that I loved, but it was a decade or more out of date. If I put in enough benzatriazole to stop the fog, the highlights went with it. Potassium bromide does the same thing except it takes more of it and can start effecting image tone. BZ doesn't do it to any large degree.

    I've wondered since those experiments if the paper was developer incorporated and if that would have any bearing on it. The paper was Polycontrast II RC. My thinking is that if DI, THAT developer would have a effective "priority" over an external one. No absorption by the gelatin required, it's working as it gets wet.

    I don't know if this is true, just a theory.

    Good luck on your experiments.
     
  22. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    After tracking down some phenyl-mercapto-tetrazole I've decided I won't try to rescue this paper. The chemical is going to cost me more than $100 for 25g and I'm not at all convinced that I'll get the contrast back in the paper. It seems that most restrainers require shorter developing times and I usually develop gallerie for 2 - 4 minutes so I can't see that I'll be able to use this paper for it's intended prupose. A replacement batch is already on its way from England at great cost:sad:

    I've got 8 packets of 12x16" Galerie Grd3; 10 fogged sheets per pack. If anyone would like to experiement with this paper in defender or with restrainers please PM me and I'll send you a pack or two for the price of postage, obviously it will be cheaper for Australians.

    I am going to keep 2 packs that I've already opened to try next time I mix up dektol 1:1, I'll add quite a bit of benzotriazole and see what happens with a 1min development time just for the education.
     
  23. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    PMT is available through the Photographers Formulary AFAIK.

    PE
     
  24. Matthew Gorringe

    Matthew Gorringe Member

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    Thanks Ron,
    I can't find it on their website by any of its many names but will email them and see what they can dig up.

    The suppliers here in Australia are only able to get it from one source in Germany and explain its expense by the grade of the product they source.

    Matt.