Fotoman 6 x 24

Discussion in 'Panoramic Cameras and Accessories' started by trebor569, Aug 27, 2006.

  1. trebor569

    trebor569 Member

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    I am toying with the idea of investing in a 6 x 24 Fotoman with a 90/5.6 Super Angulon XL lense but can not quite make up my mind if I would not be better of with a 6 x 17 and a 72/5.6 Super Angulon XL lense.
    Has any one any views on or experience of using a camera of this size?
     
  2. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Rob,

    I've used 6x17 (Linhof, Fotoman, Longfellow) and 6x12 (Horseman, Linhof) but not 6x24. In my experience, composition becomes easier up to about 6x15 (6x12 is a bit squat) then harder again. I'd also suggest that wide-angles are less useful than you might expect, but it's hard to explain why unless you try one.

    Does the 6x24 just sound like a good idea, or will it enable you to do something you've been trying to do for a long time and can't do any other way?

    Also, how big do you want your final prints to be? Crop 6x9cm in half to 28x84mm, and blow it up 5x, and you get a picture 420mm (near enough 18 inches) wide.

    Finally, how big a chunk of film can your enlarger/scanner handle?

    Cheers,

    Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
     
  3. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    It's a format I can do with a half-darkslide mask on 8x10", but as a standalone pano camera, it does sound interesting, since it would be a lot smaller than my 8x10" setup. If you photograph a lot near coastline, long panoramas are attractive on days without good clouds.
     
  4. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I have the 6x17. You can see a couple of snaps from it in my gallery. I have a love/hate relationship with it. When it all comes together, it is breathtaking. When its not the right format for the job, it sucks. My percentage of keepers with it is well below 50% but I'm still learning how to use it. Mostly issues involving parallax and convergence. The camera itself is great. I imagine that 6x24 would be even more frustrating and breathtaking.
     
  5. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Hello Trebor!

    It’s a challenge! I must tell you that the size of 6x24 is just giving you much more than anything else. So you got to take yourself to a totally different level how you think and compose your images, it’s also very important to find the right environment to use this camera. I have the Tommiyama 6x24 and I have owned this for a while and still learning how to use it! I brought this not for the use of panorama on landscape but going to have it on the streets as a kind of experiment. Read the thread Tomiyama art camera here and than you will learn more! It’s just a pity that not many people owns one so we could really learn each other! There is only one guy Cesar from Brazil owns one so far!

    I have two metal plate I can insert inside both corner of the camera and decrease the size to 6x17 but I’m sure I never gonna use it as I figure that I can resize the negs in my darkroom during the printing process! I can always take away things but never add!

    I can with hold with JBrunner "It's a love and hate relationship" :smile: :smile: That is a very well formed sentence with a lot's of feeling when it comes to this type of cameras!

    Now the technical side of this is that I have only one lens and that's the Schneider SA with it's 100 or someting degree. Somethimes I feel that the longer lens around 50 up to 60 degree would be nice but it must cover 8x10 and thats not easy to find! You got the older Angulon 165 mm but it's 80 degree and the gap is not that much I wish to have!

    The other thing is making the print's! You got to have an 10x10 enlarger! I do only hand made print's nothing else no elektronic stuff here at all! However for on the net a contact copy will do fine and that size you can scan! But there is a little something! I don't like images bigger than your monitor as scrolling the image do not give you an overall view of the image and therefore it's difficult to see what the image is all about!
     
  6. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Sure David of course you can do that but if you wanna use this size to shuts on the streets and on people than you have a problem! Because it's a wide angle camera don't had to mean that you only use it for a landscape panorama. I intend to use this for people and city scapes all kinds of applications this camera wasn't intend to use! :smile: crowded streets full of people! The beaty in this is the camera is so wide that even if people see you takig pictures they don't know what you are taking picture of! Now this could result some nice things happening in the corner of your neg! could be some real funny pics to!
     
  7. claytume

    claytume Member

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    Agree on that one.........I shoot 6x30 and 6x36+ using Roundshot cameras and also cropped 5x12 (inch).......good subjects are hard to find but when you do find them nothing beats it. Of course these extra wide panoramas take time to develop an eye and sense of composition but worth the effort.

    Clayton
     
  8. trebor569

    trebor569 Member

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    I think everyone has given quite positive advice so far on this, which I am pleasantly surprised. I originally thought of a 6x12 but that is not a big enough step up from my Mamiya 7ii. So a 6x17 or 6x24 became the choice, I blame Lee Frost and his book “Panoramic Photography” which I drooled over for months.
    I Must admit I’m still worried about how well the 90/5.6 Super Angulon XL lense will work as it is near its maximum of 259mm on the 6x24
     
  9. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Don't forget that even on 6x17 there is significant fall off, so you will need a stupidly expensive center filter to even things out, unless you like the effect. I sometimes shoot without it, on the 6x17 for the look, but on 6x24 the fall off may be unacceptable without the filter, even if the lens covers. Also, although I did have the idea of handholding it, I have found that to be more difficult than I thought, and most of the time use a tripod, or a monopod at the very least.
     
  10. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    I beleive if you got a lens which cover the format very well or I could say more than well than the fall out not gonna be there at all or not shown that much because the glass in the rear cell in that aria is flat! The fall out is caused by that the lens have a radius and it's mostly more with the rim! It takes longer time for the light to hit the neg.

    If the film position would fallow the same radius as the cell than would be no fall off at all! Now I don't know why this new manufacturers like fotoman thought of that and redisign the camera! I mean this is the case with all those rotating lens cameras! isn't that right?

    I don't have fall out or it's not reconizable on my negs!
    The holding this thing in hand had a it's problems and this is with a shutter cable position if thay have any (I don't know how it's look like on the fotoman)! This makes it difficult as you got to hold the camera stady with both of your hands, but I'm very clouse to the sollution on my Tomiyama! The other problen is the lens shade! With out it you loose contrast on your negative! But how to do a good and fast lens shade to a lens with a 120 degree? If you have the camera on the tripod it's managable with a cardboard but I want to see you how you do in free hand? like operating the shutter holding the cardboard and the top of that you must hold the camera too! Pretty sick business! isnt it? :smile::smile:
     
  11. naturephoto1

    naturephoto1 Subscriber

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    I would suspect also that there will be more and more unevenness of the sky color/tones for polarized light in both color and B&W as you increase from say 6x12 to 6x17 to 6x24 with the appropriate WA lenses in general.

    Rich
     
  12. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    That is very correct sir!
     
  13. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Actually the Scneider SA XL is more like a 5x7 lens with some useful camera movment and it's incredebly good on 4x5! This is because you using the best out of the lens best working aria But it does not work on the 6x24 cm camera! It covers it but that's it! You got the same problem with the 72 mm on the 6x17! However the 90 mm SA XL is a better choice on the 6x17 and the 6x24 would require the !20, 121 mm SA lens or the older Angulon 165 mm lens! But the 210 would be the best choice but this one is heavy and it's just to big, this lens is a 100 degree! Now of course the old Angulon only give you 90 or some more degree and those other a 100 or something! Now they will cover better and the light fall out is not recognizable because the rear cell have a smaller ( I mean bigger radius and therefore more flatness) if you compare those with the SA XL's!

    There is some older lenses like the Wollensak E.X.W.A. F12.5 6 1/4 would cover well to and there is some others but I don't remember those! I just guess that some older Goerz wa would cover too But I really don't know what degree they working on! probobly around 80 and uppward to a 90 or 100.
    Of course there is another problem with the fotoman as I have pointed out in The Tomiyama Section the lensholder. On the Tomiyama you got bellows to calibrate for the lens! I think and I can say that Tomiyama is an old man but better than fotoman in it's constructoin! It's like my Seneca is better than my Tachi! At least is what I beleive and there is some 100 years age difference!!

    To tell you the thruth you got two options either you use filter or you cut out a large part of your neg if you don't like the fall out efect!
    Now I have find that (because I work with black and white only) that having a red filter on the angulon with another filter is vigneting!
    I forgot to mention as I'm a B/W man the yellow filter is a some kind of standard filter on my cameras at all the time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2006
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  15. trebor569

    trebor569 Member

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    Use of a lense shade also gives me concerns, though I am often told your body is the best shade - all I can say is I'm Not that big that I can shade a 6x24. Lee do an excellent wide angle lense shade & filter holder combination that works quite well on my Mamiya 43mm lense though that only has a 92degree view. But least the Lee is a bellow type can adjust it and if necessary cut one appropriately.
    Operating this type of camera I know is going to be a bit of a challenge, especially as I do most of my work in Scotland, (force 9 gales, driving rain, bitting cold and even more bitting damned midges!)
     
  16. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Yes Rob!

    This is a challenge in any cases there is no doubt about that! I’m working on the lens shade problem too! I believe you have seen those 35 mm panorama movie cameras. Don’t you? Remember how the lens shade looked like? Wide and low! Bellows type of course to could adapt different lenses! Now I’m into to fold my bellows and I where asking after sites there I could learn that! Published here in the large format section under “Folding bellows” Take a looked that!

    Anyway, I learned that the deeper your lens is in the shade the better quality your neg is going to be. Don’t get scared we are a couple people sharing the very same problem but solving it is part of the fun!!! Just see to it that you choose the right lens contra neg size and than a fall out not gonna be a big issue! I for example use an oversized lens to all of my large formats! For 4x5 I use 5x7 lenses for 8x10 mostly lenses made to 30x40 cm because I want to have the possibility to use the best out of all lenses! Also witm movements I still in the lense best working aria! If the lens covers that is good but how it covers that’s a totally different thing!

    Than of course you must understand that this is not an everyday camera!!!!

    So what do you thinK what kind of whether we got in Sweden? :smile: :smile:
     
  17. trebor569

    trebor569 Member

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    Yeh but you don't get the midges!
    Have you had a look at the new Schnider XXL fine art lenses with their 900mm Image Circle (plus 2.5Kg of weight) don't think I will fit one on the 6x24.
    Thanks for yor advice and help. I will let you know how I get on.
     
  18. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    well, we don't have the midges I must admit that but -25 degrees might be something not to jump to high for either! :smile:

    About the XXL, it's a nice big and heavy piece of glass but when the price tag come up I closed my eye! But to chear you up they engrawing your name on it! :smile::smile: And it's defenetelly not feet the any Fotoman! :smile::smile:

    Good luck
     
  19. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The XXL lenses are for much larger formats than 6x24 and would seem like overkill. It's smaller than 4x10".
     
  20. Dave Wooten

    Dave Wooten Subscriber

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    a quite small 150 mm f 12.5 wollensak should cover the 6 x 24 just fine. Also as mentioned the 165 6.8 Angulon, I use a 210 5.6 Sironar S on my 8 x 10 not much movement but it would do fine on the 6 x 24

    ..personally I think a 90 mm f/8 fugi on 6 x 17 is quite nice and easily enlarged on a 5 x 7 enlarger and offers more options. i.e. sharp at f/8 quite effective as a hand held street format and the enlargements are impressive....4 shots per 120 roll...
     
  21. Ed Workman

    Ed Workman Member

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    6X24 experience

    I hacked a 6x24 using a Calumet 115mm lens and 120 film
    I have a few negs that I like and a bunch more that showed me that my brain couldn't get around the wide view- I ran out of "composition" at the ends of the frame. ( so who cares about fall-off)
    So I re-hacked the body to use an old 135 Optar. My brain could do that somewhat better, and the Optar almost covered.
    I've had a 210 lying on the shelf for a coupla years so I can make a new hack.
    One of the events that started me down this road was a "waste" of most of a sheet of 8x10 exposed thru a 300mm Protar, plus the low spontaneity of a 2-D in the field
     
  22. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    :smile: :smile: Yeah I got you point there but when you find that “composition” and your brain is open for wider things than it’s nice to know that there is no fall out! :smile:
    Anyway, I believe that in most cases that the fall out never gonna see the daylight it’s just simply going to be left in the dark. :smile: And I can state that some part of the image too and it doesn’t have anything to do with the fall out! :smile: :smile: It’s just a wide is too wide sometimes! :smile:
     
  23. trebor569

    trebor569 Member

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    The lense I had been thinking of for the 6x24 is the Schneider - Super Symmar XL 110/f5.6 with its 288mm image circle slightly beter than the 90/f5.6 Super Angulon XL and I'm guessing would not have so great a fall off and it has a reasonable 110deg of coverage but at the cost of being a slightly heavier lense.
    I was not serious about the 500mm XXL unless there is a 6x72 out there!
     
  24. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, if you look at some of Art Sinsabaugh's panoramas, they are often narrow strips--3-4 inches maybe--cropped from 12x20" negs.
     
  25. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    I know I undrestand it, that's why I said it's defenitelly not feet the Fotoman! And then I put a little :smile: efter, this is a smily! And that the whole thing was meant with a little Irony!

    If I told you that the Schneider 210 is to big earlier than you probobly understood that I didn't meant seriously as the XXL is even bigger! But David had a little problem with it! :smile:

    It would be like putting my 1000 mm Apo Ronar to my Nikon F2! Now, how that would be? :smile:


    Yes the 110 is a better choice but to what size 6x17? Than it's a brilliant choice! Expencive stuff! Look on Ebay you might fine one used! Save money for film! :smile:
     
  26. uraniumnitrate

    uraniumnitrate Member

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    Yes David, it's exacly what we are talking about! If somebody a brilliant mind with a lot's of ideas could compose so that he can show the whole negative than that guy should get a book pulished because his is a genious!