FP4+ at 64 Rodinal Times?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Darkroom317, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Darkroom317

    Darkroom317 Member

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    I just figured out that I had been over developing my film. I have been rating FP4+ at 64 but using the normal times for 125. No wonder my N+1 negatives have been so contrasty and off.

    I am having trouble finding a reliable time. The massive development chart recommends 21 mins. which is more than the 125 time. This is not what I would expect.

    So, does anyone have a good starting time for FP4+ at 64 in Rodinal 1:50.
     
  2. henry finley

    henry finley Member

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    Any special reason for using Rodinal? Personally I thought it was grainy as heck when I tried it.
     
  3. Darkroom317

    Darkroom317 Member

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    Grain isn't that big of an issue to me. I'm using 120 film so any grain is not that noticeable. I need the long shelf life that Rodinal has because my darkroom is 38 miles from my apartment. I can only work in there on the weekends and usually it is only once a month that I get to.
     
  4. cjbecker

    cjbecker Member

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    Just cut it by 10-15%
     
  5. chriscrawfordphoto

    chriscrawfordphoto Subscriber

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    I develop it for 13 minutes at 68 degrees in Rodinal 1+50, but I get an EI of 100. This gives normal contrast.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. brian steinberger

    brian steinberger Subscriber

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    FP4 is fantastic in Rodinal!! My time is 12 min at 1:50 at 70 degrees but that's at EI 100. For EI 64 I'd start around 10-11 minutes. Your negs will be fine.
     
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  7. dorff

    dorff Member

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    IIRC, the standard (N) developing time for FP4+ in 1:50 Rodinal is 15 minutes @ 20 C. Pulling by a stop should be less 33%, i.e. 10 minutes, to start with. It may help to develop slightly longer, but start at 10 and test. What is your reason for rating at 64? You are effectively pulling the film and reducing contrast. If that is what you want, then no problem. I personally shoot it at 125 and develop as standard, and like the tone curve as is. One can develop it 1:100 stand, which is a compensating developer then, and it will give lower contrast in the highlights if that is what you want. Not that I do, but if I wanted a slower film with finer grain, I would rather use PanF.
     
  8. polyglot

    polyglot Member

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    You don't pick a speed rating and THEN decide to develop it at N or N+1 or whatever; that's backwards. You pick your N/N+1/etc based on the SBR and that determines the development time, which in turn defines the film speed that will be achieved and therefore your meter settings.

    If you're developing at N+1, the rating of the film is likely to be higher than box speed, not half thereof even though you're using Rodinal.

    You can of course decide to develop at N+1 if you don't have enough light and need the speed... but you do need to be aware of the high contrast.
     
  9. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    A few thoughts.

    First is the conventional use of plus development. N+1 (extra) development is conventionally used with reduced exposure, say EI 200 on your FP4. N-1 (reduced) development is conventionally used with added exposure, like your EI 64.

    Are you really are using plus development (more than normal development time) with EI 64 exposure?

    Second is FP4's normal latitude. Shooting FP4 at EI 64 and developing normally is easily inside the limits for getting a great print. All that normally does is make more shadow detail available on the film. Using normal development here should not be a big problem. With FP4 I've used XTol, D-76, DD-X, and WD2D+ and using normal development times for all of those developers I can get nice negatives shooting at EI 32, 64, and 125. With DD-X I can even shoot FP4 nicely at 250.

    Given that, how was over development judged? By that I mean did it take grade 00 paper to get the middle tones to look right or ... ?
     
  10. Steve Roberts

    Steve Roberts Member

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    I've just been experimenting with Rodinal/FP4 combination and settled on 125ASA, 1:50, 16.5mins @ 20 degs C. Very nice negs with excellent tonal gradation and no grain issues at 10" x 8".

    best wishes,

    Steve
     
  11. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Your problem lies in trusting the massive development chart. It is full of developing times that suit other people's working processes.

    So, is your shadow detail good? Yes? If so, continue shooting at 64 if you like the results.

    Too much contrast? You must reduce developing time. Others here (folks whose opinion I'd trust) have posted 12-15 minutes at 68-70 degrees F. Somewhere in that range is a good starting point. After you reach a good baseline, adjust as necessary.

    Keep in mind that the light you're shooting in determines everything. If you're shooting in high contrast lighting, shooting at 64 is probably appropriate. If the contrast is low, however, shooting at 64 will give you a muddy mess of mid-tones only, and extremely dense highlights. That's when you want to shoot at a higher EI. Obviously, when you do, developing time must change with it.

    Have fun, and remember that it's up to you to figure out how you can alter the results to where you like them.
     
  12. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    It depends on how you use it. With proper technique in exposing film and processing it, Rodinal doesn't have to be any more grainy than HC-110 or D76.

    And, there is so much more to a film developer (and how you use it) than grain. Many people love it for the tonality that's possible with it. Others love the beautiful grain it yields, which is sort of 'organic' looking. Many love the ease of use and storage possibilities with it literally lasting for decades in the bottle, even opened. Etc ad nauseum.
     
  13. George Collier

    George Collier Member

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    +1 on everything Thomas just said.
    Also, remember that agitation methods and frequency have everything to do with contrast in developing film. As suggested, take off 10% - 20% off of your own time and, using your own technique, work your way down to the right time. If you are getting good even development with 120 film and Rodinal, I would keep the agitation scheme the same.
    You could even blow a whole roll on one shot, cut the film in half, and try two times (new developer each time). Even if not perfect, you should be able to interpolate.
     
  14. Shawn Dougherty

    Shawn Dougherty Subscriber

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    +1 on everything Thomas and George just said! Can't go wrong following that advice.
     
  15. baachitraka

    baachitraka Member

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    I may recommend to test the film atlesat.
     
  16. Richard Jepsen

    Richard Jepsen Member

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    I just developed 120 FP-4 at 80. Developed in Rodinal, 1:50, 20c, 16m. Metal 4 reel tank with the film and one spacer reel. 4 inv first 30 sec. 2 inv each min. 8 of the 16 cycles I invert the tank once at 30s. Negatives look nice but have a touch too much contrast for a condenser enlarger. May work on a diffused light source. The Jan light conditions in central OK were light open shadows. G3.

    On the print I wish the shadows were more open and there were more mid tones. Image included aged cedar patio wood and store front window with white lettering on the window. Wood printed too dark as I tried to hold highlight detail at the right tonality. I get more consistent results with D76. But when a Rodinal neg is right, it looks great.
     
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  17. Darkroom317

    Darkroom317 Member

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    I just got in the habit of half my film speed. It worked for a long time but now I want to take even more control. So, I will try 80 as well. I just now figure out that I had been overdeveloping. Some of negatives are very dense and are very difficult to print.
     
  18. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    Define difficult.
     
  19. Richard Jepsen

    Richard Jepsen Member

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    I might add I was printing on Galerie G3 with PQ 1:10 developer. You can adjust contrast by diluting Rodinal and agitation. Adding variables makes it more difficult to nail the negative contrast. In general, Rodinal will change the tonal balance vs film developed in D-76. Expect shadows and the zone IV to V mid tones to be darker. On the other hand highlights like bright skies will easily print. Under a grain focuser, Rodinal negatives have sharp grain on MF. But 120 film developed in XTOL 1:2 is also sharp without coarseness. XTOL 120 negs printed at a factor of 5x are sharp and print with clarity.

    The image chriscrawford posted has a typical Rodinal look, strong contrast. Note, Rodinal is agitation sensitive. Ilford data guide says to use 16m with Rodinal 1:50. I think this is too strong a ratio.

    Last year I was experimenting and had these time values with FP-4 and a 1:75 ratio. I think the negatives needed to be developed to about 2/3 grade harder to best print on a condenser.

    I'm not a Rodinal expert, just a casual user. There was a thread last year named; Making The Most of Rodinal. Link takes time to load.

    http://forum.mflenses.com/1979-pop-photo-rodinal-article-t37502.html
     
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  20. philbed

    philbed Subscriber

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    Old Agfa paper

    Here is an old Agfa development sheet. You will find the time, temperature and agitation proposed by Agfa. Hope it helps !
     

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  21. Richard Jepsen

    Richard Jepsen Member

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    "The average contrast is 0.65 unless otherwise stated. The ISO recommendations should be followed if possible. ** The times for Ilford Delta 3200 have not been tested and are a guide only.
    The RODINAL 1 + 100 times are only recommended for use in hand tanks. There should be a minimum of 250 ml’s of solution for each film in the tank." Agfa Chart

    A key is the average Agfa recommended contrast is 0.65. This may work in flat light but is way off Kodak's recommended 0.56 CI for a diffusion light source.
     
  22. rwreich

    rwreich Member

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    My phone-app version of the Massive Development chart recommends that if you're rating at EI64, then you should use Rodinal (1:100) for 21 minutes at 20*. If you're set on (1:50), then that may not work.