FP4+ grain in Rodinal

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by highpeak, May 17, 2004.

  1. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    I just developed my first roll of FP4+ rated at ASA160 in rodinal 1:25 dilution, very excited. I am happy that I didn't ruin the film, except a little dust on the film.

    After exam the negatives under a 4X loupe, I found they are a bit grainier than the negatives I got from photo lab, I didn't ask them what developer they use.

    My question is, can I use rodinal full strength, and is it going to give finer grain? What other developer do you recommend to try?

    Thanks for your help.
     
  2. bmac

    bmac Member

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    I believe yo ushould go the other way try 1+50 or 1+100
     
  3. skahde

    skahde Member

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    Just a few hints: If you rate your film lower and develope shorter you might like the results even more as they become easier to print and less grainy. Try 80 ASA instead of 160. To reduce the dust, wet the shower-cabin and let the film dry in there.

    To to keep the grain as small as possible two things help with rodinal, first dilute more. Rodinal behaves just opposite to say D-76 with repect to graininess and dilution. Try 1:50. 1:100 may lead to exhaustion. Agfa says to use at least 10ml stock per roll, for what this is worth. They may just be interested to sell more Rodinal.

    Keep the temp below 68F. Yes, this an old rule with rodinal. Never drive up the temperature to save time. I have a text-book from 1949 that even asks to develope at 16°C, 18°C being the standard at this time. This guy is a long term Rodinal user and claims that oatmeal-grain and raised temperature go hand in hand with rodinal: http://www.eak-fotografie.de/
    If I was still using Rodinal I would follow his advice.


    Szefan
     
  4. Deniz

    Deniz Member

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    I use rodinal 1:25 with FP4+ all the time at around 70degrees and i have no idea what grain you are talking about :D
    I once spent a good 10 mins trying to focus a fp4+ negative on the enlarger cause the grain focuser didnt show any grain! so i went with the sharpness.

    I just hate staying in the dark for a long time so i always use 1:25 with rodinal. 1:50 or 1:100 would take forever.
     
  5. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    Thank you guys, it's really great to get some helps. I will try to shoot the FP4+ at 80asa and develop with rodinal 1:50 at below 68 degree, too see if it's gets better.

    next is to try shoot the film at 100asa, 125asa, develop in 1:25, 1:50... I think I will get it right.

    Once the lid is closed, the light can be turned on, so I really don't mind a longer development time.

    Hi, Skahde, the link is great, too bad I can't read the language.
     
  6. skahde

    skahde Member

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    Deniz,

    what magic potion do you add to your rodinal? I used 1:25 once and kept the negs in the darkroom for years as they made a nice alignment-test. If this big, well defined grain was sharp corner to corner in the focusser as well as on the test-strips, I could be sure everything was within spec.

    Stefan
     
  7. Flotsam

    Flotsam Member

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    This is very interesting to me as Summer is coming and my tap water is soon going to be above 21ºc. I was thinking of adjusting my times according to temperature rather than going through the hassle of trying to lower my solution temps with ice. Now I am not sure how this will affect my results with other developers as well as with Rodiinol.

    Also. Does anybody have any advice concerning processing with Rodinol in a JOBO? Any oxidation issues at higher dilutions? How's the grain and contrast?
     
  8. skahde

    skahde Member

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    If you think the temperature-issue with Rodinal needs closer inspection develope a foot or so at 18°C and another one at 24°C. You can judge by yourself if you find a difference, provided you look at equally dense parts.

    BTW: If your developing times aren't too long you can mix developer at the right temperature from a gallon of tap water stored in a fridge and use the rest to keep the tank cool as needed. Just put a thermometer into the tank between inversion cycles and watch where the temperature is going.

    Stefan
     
  9. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    I use Rodinal all the time in the CPP-2. I do not dilute beyond 1:50 --- I tried that once,and if my cloudy memory serves --- everything was defintely underdeveloped ... I think there might be some problems, not with "oxidization" (??? I mix immediately before use - and only use Rodinal as a "one-shot" developer - so there is vey little time to "oxidize"), but something due to short-time contact with the film at higher dilutions .. the opposite of "stand" development...? - Or something like that ...

    All that said, Rodinal has become my "favorite" black and white developer. I really like its "clean" action -- and, as I've written before, I can deal with apparent grain in printing - effectively.
     
  10. Flotsam

    Flotsam Member

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    I prefer "oxidation". I'll never miss an opportunity to drop a syllable, especially one that has a "Z" in it. :smile:

    Thanks for the info.
     
  11. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    You are welcome!!

    As an aside, my own PC is to be returned this evening, complete with one (1) new cooling fan and a memory upgrade.

    I've just printed a few images from a "test" roll of AgfaPan 100.
    I wrote about being somewhat suspicious about the "NEW!!" emulsions and developing times ... where the development of AgfaPan 400 is recommended as: Rodinal 1:50; 30 (thirty) minutes @ 20 degrees C.

    This is AgfaPan 100 - "Pushed" two stops to ISO 400 and developed exactly the same - Rodinal 1:50; 30 minutes @ 20C.

    The result? I can't see one whit - not even a smidgen- NADA!! - of difference. Densities, contrast, granularity, acutance --- even base fog - all seem to be exactly the same.

    I will post a scan of a print as soon as I get my machine back and re-connected.

    Now to see if spell check works with the new system....

    It does!! At least as well as it did before...
     
  12. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    Got the prints back, they look good, just a little bit grainy than the lab developed neg, but I don't mind, I think I will try to develop another roll tomorrow with 1:50 solution. I will keep you guys posted. Thanks for the help again.
     
  13. Mongo

    Mongo Member

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    I shoot FP4+ at ASA100, and develop in Rodinal, 1+50, 68°F, for 15 minutes with 4 inversions every 60 seconds. I find the grain unobtrusive, and the sharpness is great. I just developed a roll of 120 that I shot at the Eiffel tower a few weeks ago, and I couldn't be happier with the negatives.
     
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  15. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    Here is a pic from Rodinal 1:25
     

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  16. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    and here is a pic from Rodinal 1:50 (15 min)
     

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  17. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Hi,

    don't know if I can add to this discussion, but I would still like to point out that Agfa Rodinal is not a fine grain developer. It's sharpness however, is outstanding, and I guess that's why people like to use it.
    As far as exhaustion in 1+100 dilution, I have never experienced it, since I always use 50% more developer solution than really is necessary for my tank.
    I have never tried to develop under 68*F, but will give it a go and see if there's an improvement.

    Personally I use Rodinal only with ISO 25-100 films. Any film over ISO 100 I try to find alternatives.

    I tried FP4+ in Rodinal, but like someone suggested, I too shot it at ISO 80 to get some more shadow detail and slightly reduced grain. It was a fine combination.

    Currently I'm using the Efke line of films, and they all work great in Rodinal and even better with Tetenal Neofin Blue.

    Anyway, hope this helps,

    - Thomas

    Saint Paul, MN
     
  18. highpeak

    highpeak Member

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    I don't see too much difference between 1:25 and 1:50 developed negatives, so, I will try to use 1:25 with different film first until I finish the bottle of Rodinal and then try other developer, like xtol.

    Anyway, thanks everyone. happy shooting
     
  19. photomc

    photomc Member

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    jdef, that woudl be great..
     
  20. Mongo

    Mongo Member

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    Unless you have a reason to get rid of the Rodinal, you can just cap the bottle of concentrate and put it away. One of the great things about Rodinal is that it lasts virtually forever in the concentrate form.

    You might find that some day you want to try it again, and having some around would save buying another whole bottle.
     
  21. roy

    roy Member

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    Over the coming weekend I may well give it the ultimate test. My old bottle of Rodinal is going to meet up with an out of date Agfa APX 25 film I exposed for interest.
     
  22. Mongo

    Mongo Member

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    Were I to find myself in your position, I'd think twice about this. Not because it's a bad idea (it's great idea), but because I'm sure the Fates would deem that out of date APX 25 developed in really old Rodinal is the perfect combination, and I'd find myself out of aged film, developer, or both.

    Seriously though...I'd be interested to hear how things turn out for you.
     
  23. roy

    roy Member

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    How did you know that ?! The film was APX25 with an expiry date of 07/97. The developer was Rodinal with a batch number of 76393 and I marked on the box "started 24th June,1997. In fact it had lain idle for so long that the residual developer from the initial use had stuck to the cap and there was a real risk that I might have to throw the bottle away as the cap would not budge. One of those press down and twist caps where it is difficult to get a good purchase. My son tried also and it was only by the application of hot water to the cap that I got it undone. I used a dilution of 1:100 for a partial stand of 20 minutes, agitating for 10 seconds every 3 minutes. (see how all this talk about partial stand and Pyrocat has influenced me) after a pre-soak of 2 minutes. The pre-soak water came out black and I dare not mention what colour the used developer was. Hypam fix after two plain water rinses in lieu of a stop bath, followed by a 5 minute wash in running water.

    The 120 film is drying as I speak and the negatives look very good. White flowers with very nice tonality. I am glad I treated the film reasonably seriously as I am sure I have got some useful shots. BTW the film was kept in a camera bag.

    I have to say that even though this has been a success, I just happened to have the components available and I would still consider it risky to use similar materials for something important. In a way it adds to the problem as there is now a quandry as to whether to use out of date materials, knowing that they could work.

    I must check out those other camera bags !!
     
  24. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    Way to go Roy! As part of photography is in the joy of discovery you show us all what kind of fun this "Easter Egg Hunt" can be! Thats one of the reasons I'll try most any film or developer combo I get my hands on, especially films!
    Will you be posting the results soon?
     
  25. roy

    roy Member

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    I shall have to see what I can do. I do not have a scanner although we do have a digi workstation at the club I belong to so I can probably scan a neg onto a floppy. I might print one but I do not feel that those scans always do it justice. I am just pleased and amused that I have got a film out of it all, particularly as the materials were suspect and the dev timing was made up !!
     
  26. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    I actually had something similar happen to me recently, and it so happened that I had a 120 roll of APX25, and a bottle of Rodinal that had a brown slush that would rattle if I shook the bottle (which I think meant that parts of the developer had crystalized).
    Anyway, I developed it with a 1+50 dilution in tank, agitating 5 seconds every half minute, and to my surprise, the negs came out looking quite normal. Can't really tell them apart in density, sharpness or grain from other APX25 negs developed in fresh developer.

    Was a fun little experiment.

    - Thomas
    Saint Paul, MN