freezing film and dust

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Alessandro Serrao, Sep 13, 2009.

  1. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Can using a previously deep freezed film cause the gelatine to be more receptive to dust when hung to dry?
    I mean, can the gelatine be ruined for being exposed to such low a temp?
    The plastic canister isn't vacuum proof so a little air gets in anyway, at the factory ecc...
    I'm having a heck of difficulty trying to get slides and negatives as dust free as possible. I've found that when I'm using deep freezed films (-18°C) I have this problem.
    I hung them to dry in my bathroom previously hot steamed to get the dust down.
     
  2. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Well freezing does freeze dry. That is moisture is
    drawn from whatever. The more dry the more static
    prone so the more prone to collect dust. Dan
     
  3. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    Do not open the original film wrapping until you load the camera. If then film is in the original wrapping, there will be not dust.

    Steve
     
  4. trexx

    trexx Member

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    I cannot see how freezing would make the film more attractive to dust. I can be believe that he freezing has created micro fissures in the emulsion giving the appearance of dust. How common is this and have you a scan to show?
     
  5. Jim Noel

    Jim Noel Member

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    All of my film is frozen immediately upon receipt. Of course it is in its original packaging. I don't see any problem with dust because of this.
     
  6. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Maybe what I'm referring to it's not dust but micro fractures, maybe the gelatine becomes brittle to the point of grain clumping. I've had issue of pieces of emulsion coming off the base (Agfa Apx-100), yesterday I've developed a Sensia roll in Kodak e6 chemistry and in the first roll frames the emulsion has become brittle and have defects visible on the sky portion of the image. Maybe dust collects more easily due to the emulsion being "swollen" when it reaches ambient temperature. Dunno.
    The fact is I never experience all these cons when I avoid putting the films into the freezer.
     
  7. AmandaTom

    AmandaTom Member

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    How are you freezing the film? Do you just put the canister in the freezer? How are you thawing it out? If film is frozen and thawed properly it should not have any issues; it is a common and effective way of prolonging the life of film.
     
  8. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    I don't take the canister off from the original packaging, but I put the original packaging into a zip-lock bag, then in the deep freezer. When I take them out from the deep freezer I let the plastic case warm up at least for 2 hours before opening it.
     
  9. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Well now there is another possibility. As the film dries the
    emulsion shrinks and becomes less elastic. Similarly, I've
    read of increased micro fissures within a print emulsion
    subjected to the 200F temperatures of a hot press. Dan
     
  10. AmandaTom

    AmandaTom Member

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    Two hours is not long enough to thaw the film. The metal and the film warm at different rates. You mention that the first frame of the e-6 film had a flaking problem--this and the last frame are the most vulnerable if the film is not at ambient temperature. In that case it is probably fissures in the emulsion. Thaw the film, ideally, for 24 hours, but a minimum of 5-6
     
  11. Domin

    Domin Member

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    Actually kodak has somewhat different opinion:
    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30.pdf
    There's table on second page with warm up time from different temperatures for different types of film.
     
  12. BetterSense

    BetterSense Member

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    I'm not very patient so I often yank my film out of the freezer and put it right in the camera. Never had any trouble.
     
  13. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    I take several rolls out of the freezer before I go shooting and load them as the previous rolls are finished. If I do not use some rolls, they go back in the freezer near the front.

    Steve
     
  14. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    Kodak says also than RH must be under 50%, somewhat difficult to achieve in commercial home freezers.
     
  15. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Freezer Burn?

    Freezer humidities run very low. As I've mentioned
    this thread freeze drying takes place. Moisture is
    pulled from whatever and deposits as ice. Ever
    hear of freezer burn? Dan
     
  16. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

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    This explains the brittleness of the film...
     
  17. jp80874

    jp80874 Subscriber

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    Just for test purposes buy a few fresh rolls, shoot them, process-develop them, dry them the way you normally do. If the dust also shows in the test rolls, the problem is not with the freezing. If that proves to be the case there are many past threads here on how to control dust in your darkroom procedure.

    I freeze my sheet film from between 1-3 years. The only dust I am aware of is when I am not as careful about cleaning everything in the darkroom as I know I should. The darkroom is in the basement. Heat rises, but dust falls. I have not been able to figure that out. Maybe I just track it in on my shoes or wear it in on my clothes.

    John Powers
     
  18. rustyoldbug

    rustyoldbug Member

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    Let me start by saying I am far from an expert on film. I do have a LOT of old frozen film though, including some really old Panatomic-X and Kodalith that I picked up from an old timer that closed shop last spring. It was still frozen when the guy handed me the box and said "Do you want this too?" and is in my freezer now. I have been shooting it off a little at a time and have had no issues despite the fact it has been frozen since the late 70's and early 80's (no issues with the film that is, the "pilot error" learning curve moments were plentiful at first though).
     
  19. Sal Santamaura

    Sal Santamaura Member

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    On the contrary, the freezer compartment of a typical home frost-free refrigerator/freezer subjects its contents to very high relative humidity (RH). See the second paragraph on p. 665 here:

    http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/HW_Book_19_of_20_HiRes_v1a.pdf

    I place Kodak sheet film, which is sealed in foil envlopes at low RH, as are Kodak, Fuji and Ilford roll film, in the freezer compartment for long-term storage. Ilford sheet film and all of the above after initial opening are put in plastic bags and returned to the refrigerator compartment.

    I don't see how Allesandro's storage protocol could aggravate dust problems. There might be other emulsion issues from the temperature cycling, but RH-induced static charging shouldn't be among them.
     
  20. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    Only during brief periods of defrosting. I doubt the 70 degrees
    fahrenheit and near 100% RH stated. Dan
     
  21. DutchShooter

    DutchShooter Member

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    You can "freeze-dry" yourself in your home freezer: put the stuff to be dried in a beaker, fix a piece of tissue paper over the beaker, and wait a day or two....wouldn't work with 100%RH in your home freezer....
     
  22. wogster

    wogster Member

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    I don't know about how Wilhelm discovered this, but living in a place where temps are below freezing for 4 months of the year, I do know about cold air, and relative humidity. Temperature is a factor in relative humidity. Air at 30℃ can hold a tremendous amount of water, Air at -30℃ can hold considerably less water, even at the same relative humidity. Taking an object that is at -30℃ into a place that is at +30℃ and moist you will get a trail of water vapour and condensate as the air around the object cools and the water comes out of the air, it may actually freeze onto the object.

    Now, I have been out taking photographs at -18℃, film that was in the freezer at home, goes into the bag frozen, it stays frozen during the shoot, it goes back into the bag, still frozen, and when the bag goes into the house, it stays in the corner zipped up until the next day, so that condensation that forms, forms on the outside of the camera bag, not on the camera or film.