Fuji Crystal Archive MP and Yellow Filtration- Advice Needed

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by pentaxuser, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Maybe not a new thread entirely as a search of the forum reveals comments akin to what for me is a new experience.

    It appears in at least a couple of threads in the forum that people have experienced problems with Fuji paper in terms of it requiring almost no yellow filter.

    Well now that is just my problem. I had used Fuji Crystal Archive MP in the past without this issue then switched to Kodak Supra Endura and have returned to Fuji. I knew that I would have to re-calibrate my analyser ( Philips PCA061). Picking a suitable negative( Fuji Superia 400) I ran tests using less and less Y to get a perfect print but even at 5Y I noticed that my print still had a blue cast. This showed up primarily in the sky which had a blue colour in the print that just wasn't there in reality as the sky was a typical overcast grey. Other than the sky, I could probably just about put up with the cast as it is not that noticeable in the rest of the print. Why worry about a blue sky you may say but unfortunately it doesn't look like a genuine blue. It is at odds with what was obviously a grey overcast day.

    My question is what do I do if dialling in zero Y still doesn't eliminate the blue cast. I strongly suspect it won't eliminate it as I have some experience of how much a further reduction of 5Y has on a blue cast.

    To complicate matters further, I have already had to dial in C for neutral density as the exposure times even at the smallest aperture of f16 are less than the analyser caters for. I had this problem in the past and had eliminated it via a lower wattage bulb.

    If as I suspect, getting rid of the blue cast involves using C then this becomes an active colour filter rather than a neutral density filter.

    If having got to 0Y and then making the C dial on the analyser an active colour filter, how do I then cater for exposure which is what the C dial on the analyser normally is used for.

    I would also be interested to hear why the Fuji paper needs such low Y settings but primarily my interest is in "fixing" the problem.

    As far as exposure is concerned I presumably could switch to my 80mm lens and/or switch to the 6x6 light box setting( Durst M605) but of course this wouldn't cure the blue cast problem

    Thanks
     
  2. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    This means that the paper has very low blue speed and requires cyan and magenta filtration to fix the problem. This type of paper problem may also lead to yellows contaminated with either magenta or cyan or both, making yellows dull and lifeless.

    It is also much more difficult to adjust the filter pack with papers like this, even if no other problem takes place.

    Color paper is balanced for an average 50 red with the orange masked color negative in the beam to prevent exactly this problem. Any Kodak paper with less than about 1.0 log E blue speed over the others is rejected as waste.

    If it were a Kodak paper, I would return it as defective.

    PE
     
  3. Mick Fagan

    Mick Fagan Subscriber

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    I'm using Fuji Crystal Archive Type 80 L (lustre) this is my second box and it's interesting to note that my first box had these filtrations:-

    Reala M106 Y125

    Kodak 160 NC M96 Y104

    On the first box I used I was down to M50 Y15 printing from the 160 NC negatives, which was something I was uncertain about as to the correctness until I realised that the filtration so low appeared to be normal.

    The second box I am currently using was bought on 04-03-06 and is nearly empty so next month I'll see what the Fuji gods have in store.

    Mick.

    PS- PE I tried the MGIV in the bck of the F3 last weekend but stuffed the exposures with a light leak, I'll repeat in a couple of weeks.
     
  4. Photo Engineer

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    Mick;

    Endura paper exposed in-camera with proper filtration for daylight will give good results as well at about ISO 25. Bujor B on Photo Net has reported good results. Use my cross process and get reversal prints.

    PE
     
  5. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Mick and PE. Thanks for the replies. I was hoping that a few others might have confirmed or otherwise their recent experiences with Fuji Crystal Archive MP. We must have more than two colour neg users. I'd be very interested to hear if any others have noticed an appreciable drop in the amount of Yellow filtration in recently bought Fuji Crystal Archive MP paper( lustre).

    Since posting, I have attempted to make more prints and something interesting has emerged.

    Prints are from two Fuji films that I have developed myself using the same process and chemicals as previous films where the Y filtration needed for the prints was considerably higher.

    One film was Fuji Superia 100 and exposed in my wife's Olympus compact. Of 10 prints only 5 required any Y filtration, ranging from 2 to 10. The other 5 required 0Y and of these, at least two prints were still too blue. In all cases the M filtration was between 20 and 30.

    The other film was Fuji Superia 400 exposed in my Pentax MZ7 and of these I have
    only printed 5. In all cases the Y filtration was into double figures of between 10 and 15 and the M filtration was between 30 and 35.

    All were shot at the same time in dull,overcast conditions in Prague with snow flurries and some snow on the ground in some shots.

    So this seems to reflect Mick's findings of 15Y and it looks as if ( hopefully)the prints from the Fuji 400 film will be OK albeit with low Y filtration but at least two prints from the Fuji 100 will require M and C filtration to correct the blue castand presumably a complete re-calibration of the analyser which for the sake of a couple of prints is a complete PITA.

    If I decide to attempt a re-calibration, using M and C instead of M and Y then presumably I will have to use the Y as the "redundant" dial on the analyser for exposure.- normally the C dial acts as the exposure indicator.

    If the test neg was correct at 6Y and 30M then can anyone help with how I convert this to M and C filtration. My analyser is the Phillips PCA061. Or do I simply have to start again with M and C guesses until I achieve the same print?

    I'd like to hear from anyone using Fuji paper who has experienced the same phenomenon of having very low Y filtration or better still anyone who needed to correct by changing to M and C instead.

    I am sure Fuji never intended users to have to use M and C instead of the usual M and Y for printing from colour negs.

    Incidentally I have written to Fuji UK's technical department describing the problem. When I get a reply, I'll share it with APUG. It may help others as well as me and its content will hopefully tell us about Fuji's committment to analogue users

    Any comments welcome.

    Thanks

    Pentaxuser
     
  6. Photo Engineer

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    If you get variations across Fuji film types, it indicates that there is a problem with the relative speeds in those films. So it might be a film problem as well.

    If it happens within one roll of film, then it could be a color temperature problem of the light source (daylight vs tungsten can cause this type of problem for example).

    If it happens with one negative over several batches of paper, then it is a paper problem.

    Of course, unless you do all of the variations, you cannot eliminate the possibility that it is a combination of all of the above.

    I've seen batches of negatve materials out there with big variations in relative speeds (both paper and film), and the mfgrs just let it go and rely on the customer to rebalance their exposures. That is not good. The negatives that I have are stable in color balance over the 50+ the years worth of them that I have, and the print exposures are stable at about 50R for that same time period.

    I use a lot of color paper, but rarely use Fuji.

    PE
     
  7. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I know there is nothing wrong with the fuji paper.

    If you have zeroed out the yellow, simply increase equal amounts of cyan and green filter and you will in effect add yellow

    yellow is the combination of equal amounts of green and red. with three filters C, Y, M on your dichroic head you can make any combination work.

    It may be time to inspect the dichroics in your enlarger?

    With millions of feet of paper being manufactured by fuji I seriously doubt it is a paper problem.

    Bulb colour tempature could also be a problem here , as they are ready to go they will suddenly change Kelvin temp.

    When printing various emulsions from Kodak and Ilford and Fuji, we are constantly changing our exposure values for the different stocks.
     
  8. Sparky

    Sparky Member

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    I'm guessing the bulb in your enlarger is fairly low wattage and/or is old... that would definitely add a LOT of yellow. Just crank up the C and M to compensate. Should be no problem.
     
  9. Photo Engineer

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    I would agree with the fact that the Fuji paper should not be bad, and that an old bulb will change color temperature.

    I am puzzled by the fact that two people seem to be observing a similar problem involving Fuji paper though.

    Another thing is this... I have more than 50 years of color negatives printed at exactly the same exposure onto color paper to make proofs. They are within 10R or less than that of having the same color balance. You see, color negative film is made to the same rigid specifications for speed that transparency film is. So, over the long haul, negatives should be printable with almost the same color balance just as transparency film can be shot with little deviation in color balance (less than 10 R).

    The entire design of color neg/pos is done to prevent the use of cyan filtration or the use of 3 filters in the beam at one time. This is to simplify the printing process and is also a design factor in the paper, which has the yellow layer on the bottom. If something goes wrong with this, either in the film or paper, then the color prints that result will suffer in some respect.

    So, cranking up C may work, but at what cost, I cannot say in the final print.

    PE
     
  10. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Though not printing for 50 years, I have been printing colour seriously and daily since 1976. I have never seen the 10 red variance correction factor on colour negative film. in fact it would be a miricale to have this happen in my opinion.

    Working with the cyan filter with either the yellow or the magenta wheel at zero is not a day to day situation with any colour paper I have used. Kodak, Konica, Ilford, Fuji , Agfa. Usually this indicates a bad bulb or bad dichroics but as sparky noted crank up the cyan and magenta and you will indeed get yellow correction.

    The tolerences in making colour paper is way beyond the scope of most of us practicioners. I am only grateful for the consistencys of product supplied by the major manufactures of photographic emulsions.

    There is a saying in photographic lab culture ** operator error ** . Not untill any and all variables are scoured out will a printer in any major lab worldwide, blame the paper that we use.
    In fact there is an operator in our town presently who is suggesting that Fuji Crystal Archive Flex material will not work. He is experiencing a red cast on image area and cannot figure the problem. It has been pointed out that it is a latent image pre flash that is causing the problem by various sources myself included. This operator dismisses this and insists it is fuji's problem. I am quite thankful he does not work with me.*operator error*

    The problems that occur are usually one not related to the emulsions themselves and need perservernce to find.
     
  11. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    There is a thread going on right now about Deveere dichroic filter fading that could shed some light on the topic we are discussing here.
     
  12. Photo Engineer

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    Bob;

    I worked with color papers intensely for over 50 years, and am aware of what all you say. I started to work with them at the time of the Consent Decree in the 50s.

    When I found this constancy, I was surprised by it myself.

    To explain how I found this out, when I retired from EK, I had just inherited all of the family color negatives taken over a span of over 50 years plus my own.

    As a project, I took on the printing of contact sheets of all of these and it took me a complete fall and over 1000 sheets of Endura paper. I ran about 24 sheets / night. Through it all, I used one filter pack, one exposure time and fstop and made those 1000+ contact sheets of negatives.

    All of them are within that 10R but vary in exposure (density) in the old cameras more than new cameras, and the only ones that lie outside of that range were taken on the old CU Kodacolor film in the 50s-60s. It was balanced half way between tungsten and daylight if you remember.

    So, if you ever come to Rochester, I will happily show you about 10 thick notebooks with 100 sheets each of proof prints, and I will show you my notebook with all of the data recorded in it. That filter pack has been my center point and works as well from a 68 degree tray process to a 100 degree Jobo process. I'll even buy you lunch if you can show me my 'operator error'. And, if you show it to me, I'll publish it right here!

    If my darkroom is clear of the emulsion making stuff, I will even be happy to make a print for you or let you make it yourself.

    Now, I must admit that this would not have worked 50 years ago. Color paper varied from batch to batch too much, but not the film. And, there were 2 bumps in the road going from Supra III to Endura (type I) and Endura (type II). There were 3 filter packs involved with small changes in filtration that amounted to being within the 10 red, but moving me from one end of the range to the other. Within those 3 types of paper though, the filter packs stayed constant. I'll show you those small changes as well.

    I made prints at one filter pack, then a 'corrected pack as noted on the box' and put them both into the folders when I crossed over papers. So, I not only have the locked beam prints, but the 'corrected' prints as noted by the manufacturer due to changes in the paper.

    PE
     
  13. pentaxuser

    pentaxuser Subscriber

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    Thanks all for the replies. Yes the bulb is low wattage(75W) but is relatively new and didn't cause problems with low/non existent Y filtration before. It was changed from 100W because exposures with the 100W were too short to register on the analyser which only goes as low as 4.5 secs.

    However I will try a process of elimination by changing back to 100W and also changing the bulb for the new spare as well to see what effect this has on filtration using the same negs. I can add ND by dialling in C if necessary.

    The M filtration remains about the same as before but presumably a non problem with the M filter on the dichroic head does not eliminate a problem with the Y filter. How do you tell for certain if the dichroic head is worn and can it be cleaned or the filters be replaced? It's a Durst 605M Color. I always thought that a dichroic head lasts virtually forever. The enlarger is secondhand and probably the best part of 20 years old but I know the previous owner and that it sat unused for a good portion of that time.Also if the last time I used the head the Y filtration was OK, then I wouldn't have thought that the deterioration could be that sudden. I would have expected a gradual deterioration.

    Both sets of negs look OK except that the Fuji 100 negs look "thicker" and this is borne out by the fact that these negs need greater exposures which are within the analyser's range whereas the Fuji 400 negs need the 6X6 light box to be switched in. I can't explain this except to say that my wife's Olympus compact's automatic exposure in terms of light may be different from my Pentax so it overexposes relative to my Pentax or the latter underexposes but I can't see how this accounts for the filtration problem. The scenes shot and light conditions were virtually identical.

    So I have one set of negs which are OK exposure-wise but some of which have a blue cast I cannot eliminate and another set which are OK(just) filtration-wise but most of which need the 6x6 box as opposed to the 35mm box to get exposure into the range for which the analyser is calibrated. Now if only I could combine the two....

    Bob. You mentioned switching to C and M as the equally acceptable alternative to Y and M( and yes I also noted your reservations PE) but you didn't say if it was possible to convert the correct Y and M values on the head for the test neg to a C and M values on the head to at least get close to the same colour balance on the test print. I have never used C before for test prints so was hoping to get close to the correct values to avoid wasting paper and time.

    I should have added that I opened my second box of Fuji and found no difference so I agree that unless I have two boxes of faulty paper then the odds are against it being a paper problem unless somebody or bodies reply that they have experienced the same problem.

    Anyway there's more food for thought in all of your replies. I'll keep plugging away and let you know what the process of elimination produces.

    Once again thanks to all of you

    Pentaxuser
     
  14. Photo Engineer

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    Pentax;

    A CC10M and CC10Y = CC10R To negate that or equal it, use a CC10C and if you need to move by 20R then removing 10M and 10Y and adding 10C gives you a 20C (removing the 10R = 10C and then adding 10C so you have 10C + 10C.

    Always remember thought that a 10R is 'purer' than a 10R made from a 10Y and a 10M due to the dye absorptions and interfaces between the sheets of filter material. This adds just a touch of neutral density.

    R = M + Y = - C
    G = C + Y = - M
    B = M + C = - Y

    PE
     
  15. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    PE

    Our printing experiences differ.

    Maybe I am not reading in to what you are saying.
    Are you suggesting that 50 years of colour negatives from different source materials have resulted in a printing session of 1000 sheets of colour paper and the filter pack in the enlarging head did not change more than 10red?
    If so you have discovered the holy grail! and should be honoured .
    I am not sure if my clients would accept me printing with only a 10red palette.
     
  16. Photo Engineer

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    Bob, I am saying exactly that and am willing to share the results with you if you are ever in Rochester. You see, negative film from EK is made to the same exacting standards for speed as are the reversal films, so this is possible.

    It was not possible before the introduction of the fixed speed color papers back in the 70s, and there was a bump in the road when Endura was introduced, but otherwise, this is what I found and the notebooks are sitting right here.

    Not only that, but I process from 68 deg F to 100 deg F with little change in exposure as well.

    PE