Gevachrome and orwochrome and E6

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by narigas2006, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    Dear all,

    I shot a few meters of gevachrome 702 reversal film and I will try to develop it this weekend. It seems that hot E6 will definitely destroy it, so, I plan to try the following:

    BW dev, re-exp, and C41 (at room temp)

    e6 (tetenal kit) at room dev.

    If that does not work, I will buy a dev. kit that develops svema and orwochrome. Anyway, I wonder if anyone knows if gevachrome and orvochrome uses a similar process...

    Btw, I found this site with formulas;:
    http://www.keyong.de/954830-agfacol...me-pre-e-6-orwochrome-entwicklung-development
     
  2. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Formulae for processing both these films were published in the British Journal Photography Almanac in the 50's, I do have them but unfortunately not with me. The link you posted is probably very similar, I think the Gevaert film used similar technology.

    The chemistry is quite different to E6, or more specifically the older E2, E3/4 processes, which were used at lower temperatures. You might need to use a pre-hardening bath.

    I'll see what other info I may have here in the UK this evening.

    Ian
     
  3. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    For the room-temp C-41, you might consider NCF-41. This is a room-temperature (75F) divided developer for C-41. I wouldn't recommend it for most real C-41 films (see my comments in the thread to which I linked for details), but for playing around with other films in the way you suggest, it might be better than trying to use a more conventional C-41 formula at room temperature.

    Best of luck with it, however you proceed.
     
  4. Domin

    Domin Member

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    If anyone needs, I have formulae for both negative and reversal color orwo process. They are different than geva you gave link to. Orwo uses T22 (TSS) as color developer, while geva uses T32.

    There is a lab here, in Warsaw, witch processes color orwo, both negs and slides in original process.

    If processed in spiral tank, the film might survive regular E6. I've developed once a roll of orwo UT21 in regular c41 and it worked. Emulsion swelled and drying took quite long, but I got a neg with from-behind-the-iron-curtain colors.

    It's worth to try run process at lowered temp. For orwo PC7 I use c41 kit. Color dev for 8 mins at 25C. It works. Can't say much about color balance, as it's old cine print film.

    I also suspect that processing color orwo films in c41 and possibly e6 might seriously affect sharpness. But that is just a hypothesis to be checked.
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I believe that they used Dicolamine, which is a relative of CD-4. That does not mean that they are interchangable.

    The Dignan NCF-41 will not work properly with some films as it is a 2 bath developer and relies on the thickness of the film to supply the correct amount of imbibed chemistry. In fact, this is a failing of all 2 bath developers.

    Some ORWO films used CD-1 as color developing agent. This is N,N Diethyl -p-phenylene diamine . HCl IIRC. Both developing agents are still available from many sources.

    PE
     
  6. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Depending where you are, if you need Colour developing agents PM me, I have CD-1, 2, 3 & 4, Genochrome, Mydochrome and possibly some others which I'm about to put in storage in the next few days.

    Ian.
     
  7. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    I was planning to develop in a rewind tank, so it seems a bad idea right? Anyway, would also be a good idea to preharden it? Would anyone have a good pre-hardening formula that I should try? Mercy!
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Prehardener:

    500 ml water
    100 g Sodium SulfATE
    3 ml 37% formalin
    50 g Sodium Carbonate

    Water to 1 L, pH to about 9 - 10

    Treat film for 5' at 68 F (20 C) and then wash for 10 mins. Continue with first developer.

    PE
     
  9. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    Guys, you're awesome! I have to say, this forum rocks! Anyway, I think I've got an idea about the developer, but the bleach, could I use e6 or c41? Thanks heaps.

    richardson
     
  10. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Any bleach should be fine, but the original process would have used quite a simple ferricyanide/bromide bleach, followed by fixer.

    Ian
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Both films probably formed the leuco (colorless) form of the dye and required a ferricyanide bleach as Ian says.

    The process would be:

    First developer
    wash
    re-expose
    Color developer
    wash
    Clear
    wash
    Bleach
    wash
    Fix
    wash
    Stabilizer


    PE
     
  12. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    A simpler bleach would save me a fortune! Would you have any formula for the

    bleach and the stabiliser? And PE, the clear part is new to me, what do i clean the color dev with?

    Many many thanks!!!

    Richardson

    PS: I would also be very greatful for a single color dev formula...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2008
  13. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Bleach

    Potassium Ferricyanide 50g
    Potassium Thiocyanate 7.5g
    Potassium Bromide 15g
    Water to 1 litre

    May work fine without the thiocyanate, bleach to completion.

    Stabiliser

    Formaldehyde 37% soln 6 ml
    Wetting agent 10% soln 10 ml
    Water to 1 litre

    I-2 minutes.

    Ian
     
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  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I would leave the thiocyanate out of the bleach.

    Clearing bath would be about 50 g/l of sodium sulFITE at a pH of about 7.

    Stabilzers varied, but Ian's is good. It might require a very dilute buffer at pH 4.5 though. Early ones did.

    I'll see if I have an early CD and First developer.

    PE
     
  16. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    If you have access to an early 60's British Journal Photography Almanac the correct Gevaert formula is listed, unfortunately I'm visiting the UK & my copy's in Turkey.

    You may also need to add hardener, usually Potassium Alum 30 g/litre to the Bleach, this is quite common for Orwo, Perutz, Ferrania processes.

    Ian
     
  17. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    Guys, again, you're amazing! I think I am getting there and I just have to adjust some steps. It's not perfect but i have a positive image and some colors. So, I use all @ room temp: BW dev (d19), stop, color dev (c41 kit from tentenal), bleach and fix. Just a few more things:

    the color developer... Would u have any formula with cd1, cd2 or cd3 (preferably as I have it already) that I could try? I will order more of the K ferricyanade and I was thinking in maybe getting stuff for the color dev.

    Muchas gracias!
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I would not use CD3 for these films. It is too low in activity. I would also suggest about 1/2 gram NaCNS in the first developer (Sodium Thiocyanate).

    PE
     
  19. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    If you can wait just over a week I'll post the Gevaert formulae for you.

    Ian
     
  20. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    Thanks Heaps Ian!
     
  21. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Gevaert Colour Reversal processing

    First Developer
    Metol 1.5g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 25g
    Hydroquinone 4.4g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 31.5g
    Potassium Iodide 0.1% 5ml
    Potassium Thiocyanate 1g
    Water to 1 litre

    2nd - ColourDeveloper

    Droxychrome 1.5g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 74g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 1.5g
    Water to 1 litre

    Bleach Hardener
    Sodiun Acetate 30g
    Potassium Alum 30g
    Borax 10g
    Potassium Ferricyanide 30g
    Potassium Bromide 15g
    Water to 1 litre

    Stabiliser

    40% Formaldehyde 50ml
    Water to 1 litre


    First Development 11 mins @ 20°
    Stop 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
    Reexpose 1 min
    Colour Developer 11 min @ 20°C
    Stop 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
    Bleach approx 7 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 2 mins
    Fix 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 10 mins
    Stabilise 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Rinse 30 secs

    The Development stages should be controlled to within + or - a quarter of a degree C.

    No specific fixer is listed.

    Droxychrome was a May & Baker colour developing agent, Johnsons Activol No 8, T 32 VEB Agfa, Wolfen is the same compound: Ethyl-hydroxyethyl-p-phenylendiaminsulphate

    You would either need to find a source for this colour developing agent or try substituting Genochrome (May & Baker), Activol 1, 6 or 7 (Johnsons).

    Failing that try CD-2, CD-3 or CD-4. Droxychrome is mentioned alongside CD-3 & CD-4 in some Japanese patents.

    Ian
     
  22. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    This developer is closest in structure to CD-4 but will be a bit more active than CD-4.

    I have never heard of a bleach hardener like that.

    PE
     
  23. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    I have seen similar bleach hardeners, from a German source, and also other extra hardener steps in the process.

    These are European film processes based around Agfa technology and a bit different t Kodak Ektachrome E2 and E3. The Kodak E3 process was a real pleasure to use after trying a couple of kits for Agfa and Ferrania films.

    Ian
     
  24. Photo Engineer

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    I used to run Agfa and Gevaert color paper processes at Kodak to compare them with Kodak products. The processes were interesting, but not like these and Agfa used a vastly different color developing agent. Fuji was essentially non-existant in the market at that time.

    PE
     
  25. narigas2006

    narigas2006 Member

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    So, I have heaps of CD-3, PE said that it's not as active as CD4, Artcraft sells cd3 and cd2, should I try to get cd2? or just try with high conc of cd3
    ? Many many thanks!

    richardson
     
  26. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Alternative Gevaert processing

    Here's a 1954 alternative, it uses Genochrome rather than Droxychrome, note it uses half the carbonate in the 2nd Colour developer, and a simpler bleach, times are also different:

    First Developer

    Metol 1.5g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 25g
    Hydroquinone 4.4g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 31.5g
    Potassium Bromide 5g
    Potassium Thiocyanate 3.5g
    Water to 1 litre

    Stop & Clear

    Acetic Acid (glacial) 20ml
    Water to 1 litre

    2nd - Colour Developer

    Genochrome 2g
    Sodium Carbonate (anhyd) 37g
    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 3g
    Water to 1 litre

    Bleach
    Potassium Ferricyanide 25g
    Potassium Bromide 10g
    Water to 1 litre

    Fix
    Sodium Thiosulphate (cryst) 200g
    Borax 10g
    Water to 1 litre

    Stabiliser
    40% Formaldehyde 50ml
    Water to 1 litre


    First Development 14 mins @ 20°
    Stop & Clear 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
    Re-expose 1 min
    Colour Developer 12 min @ 20°C
    Stop & Clear 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 7 mins @ 13°-18°C
    Bleach approx 7 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Rinse 1 mins
    Fix 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Wash 12 mins
    Stabilise 3 mins @ 16°-18°C
    Rinse 30 secs

    You can try substituting CD-3 for the Genochrome but you may need to experiment with the 2nd development time, also the variation of the Carbonate level between the two formula are probably to compensate for the different levels of activity of the colour developing agents.

    Ian
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2008