Glycin anyone?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by sanking, Aug 10, 2004.

  1. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Just wondering if anyone has experimented with glycin in place of metol or phenidone in combination with either ascorbic acid, hydroquinone or pyrocatechin?

    If so, any suggestions for the approximate ratio of glycin to either metol or phenidone?

    Sandy
     
  2. Loose Gravel

    Loose Gravel Member

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    With all the new developer recipes, I've been wondering about glycin. I use PMK and have followed your introduction of pyrocat. This got me to wondering about other, yet undiscovered, recipes, especially with glycin. I understand it is noted to provide very even development. Wouldn't that be nice? After all the hoops I jumped through to get PMK even with drum development, I'd like a developer that is as good and inherently even.

    The answer to your question is, however, that I've done nothing in the darkroom lately. It is on my list when I get there in the fall. I finally found a builder to take over some of my remodeling, so I can get back to the darkroom.
     
  3. clay

    clay Subscriber

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    I added some glycin at one time to the basic pyrocat recipe. As I recall, it is fairly difficult to get the stuff to dissolve at much more than 5g/100ml. It was sort of like the phenidone in that it took some stirring. It seemed to give a contrast boost, but my attention wavered and I never got around to doing an analytical comparisons. It made the spent developer a really cool purple, though!
     
  4. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    No, but I have recently mixed up batches of Agfa 8 (Glycin only) and Ansco 130 (Glycin, Metol, Hydroquinone).

    Agfa 8 film developer

    2 grams per liter of Glycin
    12.5 grams potassium sulfite per liter
    25 grams potassium carbonate per liter

    I have found Agfa 8 to be a nice film developer - it yields very nice, smooth skin tones, for example.

    Ansco 130

    Water (125 degrees F) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
    Metol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.2 g
    Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) . . . . . . . . . . . 50 g
    Hydroquinone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
    Sodium Carbonate (Monohydrate) . . . . . . . 78 g
    Potassium Bromide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.5 g
    Glycin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
    Cold Water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 liter

    I found Ansco 130 to be a nice film developer when diluted 1:20

    It seems reasonable that the Hydroquinone could be replaced with Pyrocatechol (I would be inclined to try 8 or 9 grams instead of 11).

    Pyro could also replace the Hydroquinone (maybe Champlin's favorite 3.5 grams)?



    I quick look through my copy of Dignan's notes confirmed my recollection that both Champlin and Crawley used Glycin in several of their developers.

    Harry Champlin used Glycin in combination with pyro in several of his formulations. He frequently used 3.5 grams of Pyro to 11.5 grams Glycin per liter of working developer.

    I will delve further if any of this is helpful.

    Hopefully, Pat Gainer will join in with ascorbic suggestions.
     
  5. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    Is not Pyrocat-HD even enough? I have been using it in inversion tanks (120 size) at about half strength (1000+6+6) with very minimal agitation and there have been no signs of unevenness. This would be impossible with PMK. The economy is such that I would not be tempted to use rotary processing to minimise developer quantities. But I understand that you might want to use rotary processing for other reasons. Minimal agitation development gives good speed and an impression of sharpness that I like a lot.

    (As an aside, I use the metol version of Pyrocat-HD, not the standard phenidone. I doubt that it would make much difference, but it is more expensive.)
     
  6. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    One additional observation. My tests show that Glycin is not soluble in ethyl, methyl or isopropyl alchohol. It is also not soluble in either ethylene or propylene glycol.
     
  7. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    However, I have determined that Glycin is soluble in Triethanolamine (TEA). I have prepared concentrated stock solutions of Ansco 130/TEA and will be testing it against the standard formulation over the next week.

    Ansco 130, Variant 1

    A Solution
    Triethanolamine 130 ml
    Metol 4.4 grams
    Hydroquinone 22 grams
    Glycin 22 grams
    Triethanolamine to make 200 ml

    B Solution
    Water 700 ml
    Sodium Sulfite 100 grams
    Sodium Carbonate 160 grams
    Potassium Bromide 11 grams
    Water to 1 liter
     
  8. Silverpixels5

    Silverpixels5 Member

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    Tom:

    You may want to do side by side tests with the regular formula against the TEA one. The TEA may be good for a very extended shelf life, but I've found that my Ansco 130 solutions have kept for periods of 6 months even when dilutied 1:1...even longer for the stock solution. Its as if the glycin is more stable in the solution then it is as a powder on the self. I havn't noticed any difference in developer results after 6 months, but that could be purely subjective.
     
  9. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I agree "...I have prepared concentrated stock solutions of Ansco 130/TEA and will be testing it against the standard formulation over the next week."

    I have conventionally prepared Ansco 130 (on 6/8/04) and that is what I will use as my comparison.

    Today, I am mixing Ansel Adams version of Ansco 130 in TEA as a stock concentrate.

    Ansel Adams 130/TEA A Solution

    Chemical Amount Units
    Triethanolamine 150 ml
    Metol 2.2 g
    Glycin 11 g
    Triethanolamine to make 200 ml




    Ansel Adams 130/TEA B Solution

    Water 700 ml
    Sodium sulfite 35 g
    Sodium carbonate (mono)* 78 g
    Potassium bromide 5.5 g
    Water to make 1000 ml

    Working solution: 50 ml A + 250 ml B + 700 ml water

    My plan is to evaluate using these two developers in a Split Development scheme.
     
  10. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    Any thoughts on using Phenidone in place of metol in the various 130 recipes?
    juan
     
  11. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Yes Juan, I've thought about it - haven't tried it yet. It should be superadditive with the Hydroquinone and Glycin combination. That might not be a good thing - have to try it and see.
     
  12. Neanderman

    Neanderman Member

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    Sandy, are you interested in film developers or paper? I've been comparing glycin paper developers recently and would be happy to share what I've found, including ratios of HQ to glycin and Metol to glycin.

    Ed
     
  13. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I would be interested.
     
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  15. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Absolutely I would be interested, and thanks for asking. I have been planning to experiment a bit with variations of the Pyrocat-HD formula plus glycin and would really like to look at your data.

    Post here as I am sure there are a few others who would like to see your results.

    Best,

    Sandy
     
  16. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

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    I use formula 95 from Steve Anchell's book. I find that glycin disolves well if you mix in a specific order. I first throw in a large pinch of sodium sulphite, then mix in the Metol, till it's disolved, then add the HQ then the the rest of the sulphite, then the glycin. It takes a little bit of stirring but it goes into solution. I mix it from 1:6 to 1:4, the higher the dilution, the warmer brown the images develop out to be. I like the look quite a bit in Ilford warm tone and polywarm tone (Forte).

    RH
     
  17. m. dowdall

    m. dowdall Member

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    Ansco 130/TEA

    Tom

    I am interested in trying this version of Ansco 130 so that I can mix up the full amount of glycin I buy without my stock solution going south before I use it.

    Has it been successful for long term storage? Does it give the same results as the normal version?

    Also what dilution do you use? Further down in this thread you list Adams version with dilutions of;

    50ml A + 250ml B + 700ml water

    Since the Adams version posted has twice the concentration, would the correct dilution of Ansco 130/TEA be;

    25ml A + 125ml B + 850ml water

    Michael
     
  18. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I've tried several glycin based film developers, mostly many years ago. The Crawley FX-2 and FX-11 both seem to work well with modern films, and they are problably the best I've tried. I haven't tried Agfa 8, but it looks promising. I used Kodak D-78 with both old and modern films, and I thought it gave inferior results. It was better with old-style (Background-X) stock. Sease No.5 is also a possibility. (What about using CD-4 instead of PPD.) I did a couple of experiments with glycin and ascorbic acid, both with uncertain results. Glycin and ascorbic acid didn't appear to be superadditive, and the combination didn't seem to have any real advantages - but my experiments were informal and minimal. I came across a couple of formulas from Focal that look interesting, but they are very old:

    Focal 14 film developer

    Sodium sulfite 25 g
    Glycin 20 g
    Potassium carbonate 100 g
    WTM 150 ml

    For tray, dilute 1:15 and develop old films 8 to 10 minutes.
    For tank, dilute 1:50 and develop old films 45 to 60 minutes.
    Focal 15 film developer

    Glycin 50 g
    Sodium sulfite 100 g
    Potassium carbonate 250 g
    WTM 1 l

    For tray, dilute 1:3 to 1:5 and develop old films 8 to 10 minutes.
    For tank, dilute 1:15 and develop old films about 20 minutes.
     
  19. steven_e007

    steven_e007 Member

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    Just a word of warning to anyone who might be as daft as me.

    I decided to experiment with glycin but found it seriously expensive to buy from photograhic suppliers.

    I decided to do a bit of lateral thinking and bought some much more cheaply off a chemical supplier.

    DUH!
    :rolleyes:

    The common name 'glycin' applies to several different chemicals, including the photographically inert amino-acid ....

    Steve
     
  20. buze

    buze Member

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    I'm surprised you can find the photo-glycin in the UK at all ! I checked most of the chemical suppliers around here (I think!) and could not find anything... If you have any pointers, feel free to forward them my way :D

    I've had the ANSCO 130 on my list of "stuff to do" for quite some time...
     
  21. steven_e007

    steven_e007 Member

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    Hi Buze,

    I used to buy my chemicals from "Rayco" in Barnsley.

    They definately did do glycin (the correct glycin!!!) for a while, but it was a silly price. I've just tried to find their web site to see if they still do and I am horrified to discover that they seem to have gone belly -up :mad:

    Not good news...

    Steve
     
  22. glbeas

    glbeas Member

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    I found a couple of glycin formulas in a book by Wall and Jordan.Seems a bit different from the others posted here.
    This one didn't have a name or any other designation.
    Water 1000cc
    Sodium Sulfite 100g
    Trisodium phosphate 125g
    Glycin 25g
    Potassium Bromide 3g

    1:3 for chloride and chlorobromide papers, 1:4 for bromide papers
    develops in 2 to 3 minutes and can be prolonged with no ill effects

    This is the first time I've seen TSP in a developer formula.

    The other formula listed was Edwal 106, I'll post it if anyone wants it.
     
  23. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If they spell it "Gycine", it's definitely the wrong stuff.
    If it's cheap, it's definitely the wrong stuff.
    If it's expensive, and spelled "Glycin", it might still be the wrong stuff...
     
  24. Jerevan

    Jerevan Subscriber

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    As an aside, why not use CAS numbers together with the chemical names? They are a good help to pinpoint more exactly what things are.
     
  25. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    The extra Sodium Carbonate really gives the prints some punch, doesn't it?...EC
     
  26. JPD

    JPD Member

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    Ah, Agfa 8! Very good for portraits and also a high accutance developer like Rodinal. Simple to mix too!