Got the AZO, ordering the Amidol

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by bmac, May 6, 2003.

  1. bmac

    bmac Member

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    Going to order some Photographers Forumlary Amidol for my newly bought AZO. This will be my first attempt at contact printing large format negs. Should I get the regular amidol or Westons? What is the difference? (besides $2)

    Brian
     
  2. LFGuy

    LFGuy Member

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  3. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LFGuy @ May 6 2003, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here's a recent related question:

    http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum...&GID=1908&CID=1

    I've only tried Michael A. Smith's formula, so I can't comment on the others, but I've heard they don't last nearly as long and don't work as well. Check out his site for the formula, developing times, technique, etc.

    http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/Azo_Formulas.html

    My $0.02. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    You should get your amidol from Mike Jacobson at:

    http://www.artcraftchemicals.com

    Mike is quite familiar with all of Michael Smith's formulae.

    You will also need sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate (plain fixer), citric acid, sodium sulfite and sodium (meta)bisulfite. Also, I put benzotriazole in my amidol but I seem to be in the minority.

    Figure about 5 lbs. of fixer crystals for each gallon of working solution. I have gotten pink stain on my prints when using ammonium thiosulfate based (rapid) fixers with amidol. I didn't always get it, but it absolutely ruins your prints when you do. Better to be safe than sorry when working with precious amidol and Azo.
     
  4. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    Yes, I second the comments on Michael Smith's formula. It can be found on their site michaelandpaula.com. The reason that Amidol gets the "bad rap" about rapid exhaustion is that the other formulas do not use citric acid. The citric acid stabilizes the formulation and hinders rapid depletion through oxidation. Artcraft Chemicals is less expensive and very accomodating on their chemistry. I have bought from both Formulary and Artcraft and so I have a valid point of comparison. Not that Formulary is "bad", please understand, but that I have found Artcraft to be more favorable.

    If you plan on buying bulk chemicals (highly recommended) you will need something that will allow you to weigh in grams. There are ways around this but I have not used them so I can not comment on their accuracy.

    As an aside, I learned yesterday that both Formulary and Artcraft were reportedly temporarily out of stock on Amidol...It appears that the secret is getting out. Good luck to you.
     
  5. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    Wow, 5 lbs of thiosulfate per gallon of fixer...I use 2 lbs and 4 ounces of sodium sulfite. I don't know how a person could get 5 lbs into solution. Even the Kodak F6 and F24 formulas call out 32 oz of Sodium Thiosulfate per gallon... the Kodak formulations do have additional ingredients apart from the plain hypo formula that I alluded to at the outset.
     
  6. LFGuy

    LFGuy Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (c6h6o3 @ May 6 2003, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You should get your amidol from Mike Jacobson at:

    http://www.artcraftchemicals.com&nbsp;

    Mike is quite familiar with all of Michael Smith's formulae.
    </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Agreed. Just tell him you want a one-liter Michael A. Smith amidol formula (or whatever size and quantity you want), and you can get everything pre-measured in zip-lock bags. (I actually got a little more KBr last time). A 1 L kit will develop more paper than I can do in a printing session.

    When I don't have amidol, I use Agfa Neutol WA, and failing that, Dektol.
     
  7. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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  8. Tom Duffy

    Tom Duffy Member

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    Brian,
    repeat after me, "DON'T buy the formularly amidol package". The results don't look nearly as good as Michael A. Smith's formula. I almost gave up on azo before using the Smith formula. there is no comparison!

    as pointed out Mike Jacobson at artcraft is the place to get it. I didn't have a scale so he even mixed the formula for in packets for me, at a very reasonable price.
    Tom
     
  9. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  10. bmac

    bmac Member

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    Aggie, are they into mixing kits like Artcraft? I'm not interested in doing it on my own, that is why the PF kit was interesting to me. I emailed artcraft to check prices and availability for their amidol kit and hypo.

    Brian
     
  11. bmac

    bmac Member

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    I emailed Artcraft two days ago, and still no response. Is this the norm from these guys?

    Brian
     
  12. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Sometimes Michael makes trips to Canada, so yes sometimes this happens. Be patient, he is a good guy and will take care of you.
     
  13. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  15. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    Brian,
    It has been my experience that when I phone (evenings or weekends only) that I have reached Mike and he has been very accomodating. He has an 800 number which is listed on his web site. By way of information, Artcraft is a "second job" for Mike and that is the reason for his "unusual" business hours. Hope this helps. Good luck.
     
  16. bmac

    bmac Member

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    Just got a reply to my email. Now I am more confused. It is $8 for one liter worth of amidol (I'll grab enough for a few sessions), but he offered me two different fixers.


    FIRST FIXER:
    32 ounces dry measure Sodium Thiosulfate Prismatic Rice Crystals per each gallon of water. Mix at around 90 degrees. We mix 10 gallons at a time as a stock solution.

    For use: To each 1/2 gallon of fixer Add 25 g of Sodium Bisulfite.
    Fix for 30 seconds. Turn on the light. Inspect print. Fix additional 3,5 minutes (4 minutes total).

    SECOND FIXER

    Sodium Thiosulfate without bisulfite Use for 4 minutes.


    which one do I need?

    Brian
     
  17. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    Brian,

    Typically in processing fiber prints, for archival purposes, one uses two fixing baths. The first would be the 32 oz of Thiosulfate per gallon of water mixture, which would then have the Bisulfite added to it. The second fixing bath would have the Thiosulfate at the same dilution without the Bisulfite.

    The second fixing bath of this printing session would be saved and it becomes the first fixing bath of the next printing session by adding bisulfite to it. So each printing session you would use a fresh mixture of the Thiosulfate/water mixture for the second fixer bath and add the Bisulfite to the first (saved) batch from the previous session.
     
  18. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (dnmilikan @ May 6 2003, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Wow, 5 lbs of thiosulfate per gallon of fixer </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Maybe it's only two pounds or so. The point is, 5 lbs. doesn't last very long. You use 32 oz. dry measure per gallon. Now that I think about it, the 5lb. I bought from Mike made two gallons. I only have a little bit left not enough to make a gallon. Next time I'm ordering 20 lbs.
     
  19. bmac

    bmac Member

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    Amidol and Fix ordered. I'll be waiting on the front porch now...
     
  20. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    The last time I ordered Thiosulfate from Artcraft, I ordered a 50 lb bag even though Mike only advertises 20 lbs. He was kind enough to put the bag into a box for shipping to me. The bonus was that 50 lbs from Artcraft was less expensive then 20 lbs from Formulary.
     
  21. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    How much was the 50 lbs. bag? The cost of this damn fixer is killing me.
     
  22. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    As my memory serves me, it was $68.00 plus shipping.
     
  23. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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  24. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    My local supplier sells crystalline hypo for about $2/kg, anhydrous for $15... They have no "bulk option" for anhydrous, only analytic grade. The crystals are technical grade.

    I wish there were a supplier of photographic chemicals here in Norway!
     
  25. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (avandesande @ May 9 2003, 10:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> http://www.chemistrystore.com/ sells anhydrous sodium thisulfate, so you save on the shipping weight of the water in the hydrate. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    Do you still use 32 oz. dry measure per gallon as you would with prismatic rice crystals?
     
  26. bmac

    bmac Member

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    OK, as you may have seen from my post earlier today, the amidol and fix have arrived. A couple of questions about mixing now...

    I bought 4 1 liter units of the Michael A Smith formula. The kits each have 30 g of Sodium Sulfite, 3 Grams Citric Acid, & 8 Grams of Amidol. Also included was a seprate baggie of Pot. Bromide 10 grams.

    Looking at Michael's site, the Amidol formula calls for KBr (10% solution) 2 cc . IU imagine that this is the Pot. Bromide. How do I make this solution? and is 10 Grams enough for 4 liters of Amidol? I Plan on making it just prior to use each printing session.