grainy ... films under the microscope

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by photophil, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. photophil

    photophil Member

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    some time ago I had put some different black and white films under the microscope. I had just been interested in how grain looks and what "fine" and "coarse" grain really means. I thought it would also be intersting for other so I will put these here.

    Four images of each film with different magnifications. As the scalebars are not easily readable, here the values (from top left to bottom right): 500µm, 100µm, 50µm, 20µm

    The film/developer combos I had looked at first were:

    Ilford FP4+ (@ 125ISO) in Rodinal 1:25
    Kodak TriX (@ 400ISO) in Rodinal 1:50
    Fuji Acros (@ 80ISO) in Spur SD2525
    Ilford Delta400 (@ 800ISO) in Rodinal 1:25

    I will add more combos within the next days if you are interested in. All films had been 120s medium format developed by hand in a Jobo drum (tilting style) using the datasheet recepies or the mass dev chart.

    PHILIP
     

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  2. mr.datsun

    mr.datsun Subscriber

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    Looks interesting. It'd be great to compare different films in the same developer and at the same dilutions.

    Also, is it common sense to assume that inverting these images shows what the grain in a print would look like?
     
  3. stavrosk

    stavrosk Member

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    Wow very interesting! Thank you!
     
  4. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    People refer to grain or graininess in a print. But it is important to always remember that what is seen in prints is not really grain. What is seen are the spaces between the grains in the negative.
     
  5. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Photophil,

    Thank you for this post. I would be interested in others being able to see some images of negatives produced by staining developers.
     
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  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Umm, while interesting, it would be nice to know the speed comparisons and contrast values for the films. Otherwise we don't know what the actual data represents. These are just points of data hanging out to look at.

    To be a fair comparison, all films should be developed to the same contrast and to the rated speed in a common developer.

    PE
     
  7. Peter de Groot

    Peter de Groot Member

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    I would be interested to see what the differences are for example tri-x in rodinal 1+25 and 1+50 and 1+100 stand dev. Or something like that. And taht repaeted for different developer combo's and films. However it is cool to see it up here. Thanks.
     
  8. photophil

    photophil Member

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    That is also one thing I want to try. I have recipies for 1+25 and 1+50 with tilting. Does someone has a nice set of time and temperature for a 1+100 and/or 1+150 stand development?

    If I have enough time (and films) I will maybe also try to look at different levels of push development (400/640/800ISO)...

    PHILIP
     
  9. photophil

    photophil Member

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    If not especially given I take the box speed (eg 400ISO for TriX) and use the development data from the manufacturer which (normally) should give something around delta 0.6

    I know that my test here are just some small glimpses of all the combinations possible. But thought they would be interesting also in this state. Just to get an impression what we are taking about when it comes to "grain". I will not provide excessive grain-size-analysis exactly because of the problems you had adressed.

    PHILIP
     
  10. Diapositivo

    Diapositivo Subscriber

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  11. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    In addition, use the same test target for each film and then put the same areas of the target under the microscope.
     
  12. paul ron

    paul ron Member

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    I'd be more interested to see differences between T grain films vs the standard grain of sister ASA speed Pan films keeping developers n temps the same both shooting the same target.
     
  13. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    Interesting and valuable. The examples look pretty closely matched, but it's hard to tell, and PE makes a good point. I'll be looking forward to more.
     
  14. Newt_on_Swings

    Newt_on_Swings Member

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  15. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    photophil,
    Can you say how you keep the film flat to take these photomicrographs?
    Thanks
     
  16. photophil

    photophil Member

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    actually, I do nothing :smile:

    I dont want to have scatches by any clamps or whatever. If you look closely you will see on some images that the corners are somehow out of focus because the film is not fully flat. I just try to stay in the center of the film-strip so I only have light bending and not an angled surface like I would get on the curled edges.

    PHILIP
     
  17. photophil

    photophil Member

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    Here are two more combos:

    Ilford PanF plus (@ ISO50) in Rodinal 1:50
    Ilford Delta3200 (@ ISO3200) in Rodinal 1:50 at two spots with low and medium density on the negative

    The second one is - according to some people around - not an optimum combination. But I tried it once and now I can show it here.

    A Rollei 80S (planned for SD2525) and a Fomapan400 (planned for Rodinal) are in my camera right now. So these will be the next ones shown here.

    so ... fire away :tongue:

    PHILIP

    PS: Just some remarks on my development process: All development is done in a Jobo drum by hand with tilting. Developer (in aqua dest.) tempered with an analog thermometer. Chemistry measured with small measurement cylinders. The time is taken from a stopwatch.
     

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  18. photophil

    photophil Member

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    I have copied the highest magnifications into one file and sorted them according the grain size (as it appears to me). This - for me - gives the following list:

    Ilford PanF+
    Fuji Acros100
    Ilford FP4+
    Kodak TriX400
    Ilford Delta400 @800
    Ilford Delta3200

    As said - all my personal opinion. Due to other film development the order may change.

    PHILIP
     

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