Gum Over Pigments, Clays article

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by shinn, Jul 7, 2004.

  1. shinn

    shinn Member

    Messages:
    92
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Location:
    Bezerkeley,
    what kind/brand of pigments are being used? I've always used tube watercolors for gum printing and would like to switch to powdered pigments. I get different results with different brands of watercolors, and I'm sure this is no different and would like to start off right.

    Also, what is the technique for spotting alt prints? I've tried and tried with no luck and gave up a while ago, my "spot" always dries down to a different color. Is there a magic ratio of pigment to gum or something? Thanks.

    Happy Days
     
  2. clay

    clay Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,124
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Gumover

    I use Winsor and Newton tubes and also Schminke (because I like the name)
    Here is my tip-o-the-day. When you mix your gum and pigment, but BEFORE you add the dichromate, dab a little bit of the blend on a 3x5 card which has your printing notes on it (You DO write down what you are doing, don't you?). When you need to spot, just moisten a brush and pick up as much of the pigment from the card as you need to cover the blemish. This should match exactly, and all you need to do is dilute it to cover lighter spots.

    I havent used the powdered pigments yet, but I may start to do so since they are much more economical.
     
  3. shinn

    shinn Member

    Messages:
    92
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Location:
    Bezerkeley,
    Right on Clay I never thought about doing it that way and there seems to be little information on the subject, that I've found anyway.

    Is the "dab" dry? Do you spot the print before or after washing. Dry print or wet? Sorry for needing specifics, but I've got many negatives I'd love to reprint now, with out the spots of course and now I'm all giddy about it.

    So your weighing out the tube colors, I'm not sure why I thought they were powdered but will definately use my scale now.

    And yes I do write everything down and should have mentioned that I'm as color blind as one could possibly imagine and I'm sure this is gonna help. Thanks.

    Happy Days
     
  4. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

    Messages:
    4,532
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Clay, I have a question that you might be able to answer. While I was visiting with Burkholder I saw that he actually teaches to lay the platinum solution over the color pigment from the printer. Could it be possible to do this with gum? instead of doing the pt/pd first, develop etc, etc. Can you do the gum first, expose, put the pt/pd over the gum, expose and then develop and wash all together? This might help prevent the shrinking with the paper. Which to tell you the truth is the reason I have not tried gum overs yet.
     
  5. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Clay if you want to try the dry pigments, here is a list i drew up for a pastel forum I belong to. One note on dry pigments, make sure they are eniform in particle size. To do that get a mortor and pedstel and grind the pigments until they are the fineness you want.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. clay

    clay Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,124
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hey Aggie,

    Thanks for that file. That'll help if I transition to dry pigments.
     
  7. clay

    clay Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,124
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Terry King swears that platinum over gum is superior to gum over platinum. I've tried it both ways, and I prefer the platinum layer first, if for no other reason that it is easier to register the other coats, and in my opinion, looks a lot better. The gum steps have the effect of filling in a lot of the porosity in the paper, so it also makes the platinum sensitizer a little difficult to soak in. Everybody I know except for Terry does it platinum first, then the gum layers. There are no rules, of course.
     
  8. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

    Messages:
    4,532
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Thanks Clay, I guess I will have to try it one of these days.
     
  9. shinn

    shinn Member

    Messages:
    92
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Location:
    Bezerkeley,
    Is Dan Burkholder making PT prints over inkjet?

    Is this right?: coat your gum/dichromate, expose but not processing it and then recoating it with PT/PD then processing? I'm not sure that any of the PT would get into the paper, I could be wrong though. It may even depend on the color of gum thats used. Also, gum prints tend to have some 3D qualities and they seem thicker before washing, that may affect registration.........? Sounds interesting though, I think you'd get a totally different feel and look to the print this way as well. Definately worth trying.

    As far as shrinking paper, I do it at home while cooking or drinking a beer(s) watching tv. BFK rives, 6-8 sheets at a time. I do this three times: Hot water soak for 2 hours and dry over night, then I size and harden them all at once as well. Now though my third soak will be in Oxalic acid if I plan for gum over. (I'm not sure that I need the oxalic for Ziatype though)

    I also have a question for you Jorge: I read here that you did not have very good luck with ziatype, why is this? I've done only a few to this point (15) and can't say whether its good or bad I know I like what I see so far though. Having done so many Argyrotypes which is also humidity controlled (even moreso) I felt this was the way to go, especially after realizing how nice it is not to do any test strips, not yet anyway. I'm using FAO(A), Potassium Chlorate/FAO(b), LIPD(c) and PT/AU at 5%, were you using Potassium Dichromate? I chose the chlorate version because it is closer to the traditional PT/PD process it will even develop out with Potassium Oxalate.

    Wow thats a long one, sorry.

    Happy Days
    Mark
     
  10. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

    Messages:
    4,532
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Yes Mark, although Dan calls them pigment over platinum, the actual procedure is reversed, you print the ink jet print first and then you coat with the platinum. He does this not because he wants to deceive people, but because the registration of the negative is easier to achieve if you print the ink jet portion first, at least this is what I was able to glean from what he showed me. I did not take the workshop, but was only observing while the students did their prints and asking questions, so I am not the most qualified person to comments on this, you can e mail Dan directly, he is very nice and I am sure he will answer your questions.

    The problem with the Zias was the humidity for me, I use a platemaker and I think the heat from the lamp was drying the paper too much. If I tried to leave it a little bit more humid, I ruined the negative. I used the kit sent by B&S with the FAO, etc, etc. To tell you the truth at this point I have the DOP down to a science where I dont need to do test prints, so struggling with Zias does not appeal to me any more.

    See, your shrinking process is what I am trying to avoid, I definitely have no patience for this. Even the pre oxalic acid bath is a PITA for me...lol.....I think I will order some gum and try it the way I am thinking. I am not so much concerned about the absorption as much as I am concerned about the contrast increase or even the lack of reduction of the pt/pd by the dichromate in the gum. Certainly if I was to do the gum, wash it, dry it and re coat with pt/pd, well that would give me the same problem as gum over pt....no? I think if I can save the intermediate wash step before recoating I would like to do some of this, if not...well I will be happy to see your and Clay's prints...:smile:
     
  11. Kerik

    Kerik Member

    Messages:
    1,467
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2002
    Location:
    California
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Jorge,

    If you use Fabriano Artistico Extra White HP for gum over platinum, you should not have any registration problems. The oxalic acid presoak before the platinum layer (if this is a PITA, maybe you should take up digital printing - KIDDING!) will give a bit of a pre-shrink. The other 2 key steps for getting good registration are:

    1) Make sure you dry your platinum-coated paper very well before you expose it. This way, the paper will be as small as possible before you make the platinum print. You may not get quite as rich a platinum print as you would with a little moisture in the paper, but the subsequent gum coat(s) will more than make up for it.

    2) Don't use very hot potassium oxalate when you develop the platinum layer. I usually use it at ~80 degr. F (although I use it MUCH hotter if I'm not doing gum over). You won't get as warm a print, but again, the gum layer(s) will be in control of your final print color, not the platinum layer.

    (BTW, I also have yet to see a platinum over gum print that is even in the same league with gum over platinums.)

    It's all really pretty quick and easy once you get a rhythm going, and the prints are SO MUCH nicer than straight pt/pd, how can you NOT do it?

    Good luck!
    Kerik
    www.kerik.com
     
  12. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

    Messages:
    4,532
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    The oxalic acid presoak before the platinum layer (if this is a PITA, maybe you should take up digital printing - KIDDING!)

    Them are fighting words kerik...lol..

    Thank you very much for your advice, like you I like the PO at room temperature, so I will try and get this paper and give it a shot.
     
  13. clay

    clay Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,124
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Asheville, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I always dry the paper after each step. Dry the pt/pd, size the print, dry again, and then do each gum layer, drying in between.

    Try the Fabriano Extra White Hot press - no pre-shrinking, only a 5 minute 1% oxalic acid soak and dry cycle is needed. It registers perfectly (at least up to the 12x20s I am doing)

    It's all great fun. Strangely enough, the more prints you do, the better you seem to get. Funny, that.
     
  14. donbga

    donbga Member

    Messages:
    2,084
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Shooter:
    Large Format Pan
    Terry King Article in current View Camera

    I just received my copy of View Camera today and it will be interesting to read Terry King's article on platinum over gum, however FWIW after quickly thumbing through the article and taking a glance at the example print illustrations I can say that I don't think that King's work has the vitality and depth of the prints that Stuart Melvin, Kerik, and Stan Klemec <sp?> have shown in their gum over work. And to be honest I didn't think his work shown at APIS last year was as impressive as I had expected. I'm not trying to sound critical but just expressing my comparative take on the work shown at APIS and the different styles of of printing.

    I guess I really need to get off my butt and try gum printing and gum overs.

    Don Bryant