Hand Made Azo? Is it possible?

Discussion in 'Contact Printing' started by Sean, Nov 11, 2002.

  1. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

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    We can make our own platinum papers. I was wondering if this can be done with Azo as well? I'm no chemist so am not sure. Just curious if this is feasable should azo production from Kodak finally dry up.
     
  2. bmac

    bmac Member

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    Are you nuts??!#@?!#? Just Kidding.. I think it would be a ton easier to buy a bunch of it to stockpile... this stuff lasts for years if stored in decent conditions...
     
  3. Robert

    Robert Member

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    Do you just want paper? In the "Darkroom cookbook" I think he describes how to make your own paper. I just skipped it. Figure I can always go back if it ever becomes an issue-)
     
  4. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Silver chloride emulsions are the basis for a few alt printing methods, like salted paper or Kallitypes. I am ignorant in the Azo production method but I imagine the paper must have some kind of sensitizer to allow it to be printed with a "regular" light instead of a UV light.
    If you want to try something similar and much cheaper than pt/pd try kallitypes, they are beautiful when done well.
     
  5. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Since Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee have committed to buying whatever quantity of Azo it takes to keep it in production, I'm sure that we'll at least have plenty of warning should it ever be taken out of the lineup. At that point I'll buy a lifetime supply.

    Since Michael and Paula have made such a huge financial commitment to keeping Azo around it's very important that we who use it support them. If you're going to use Azo, PLEASE buy it from them. Their price might be a few dollars higher than someone else's (although they're cheaper than Calumet) but their price is a whole lot cheaper than what you'll have to spend if Kodak discontinues it. Also, they are the only source of Grade 3 Azo in 100 sheet boxes, and 500 sheets is a pretty stiff whack to my bank account.
     
  6. richardjx

    richardjx Member

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    Hello:

    Making photo paper is a fiendishly exacting process, successful only with very precise machinery- the layers must be fractions of a thousandth of an inch or the densites will be all wonky- and VERY expensive: millions.

    Platinum paper is easy to make as it involves only one layer and one solution: silver gelatin paper requires many layers, not to mention aging the gelatin and silver chloride.THEN, THEN all of this must be done in total darkness, whereas PT/Pd can be applied in reasonably bright yellow light, as it is sensitive only to UV, where silver salts are sensitive to more wavelengths of light.

    This means the sensitizers must be added, balanced, then aged etc etc.

    When Kodak builds a plant to make paper the investment is over 500 million dollars!

    This reminds me of what Richard Branson answered when asked how to become a millionaire: "get a billion dollars then start an airline".

    Buy Azo from Micheal and Paula and each time you get a good print say "Thank you Michael and Paula AND Kodak".
     
  7. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, the nice update in "Contact Printing" seems to have vanished. Wonder where it went. But, here is an ancient thread that seems begging for an answer and it came up in my search.

    Yes Sean, you can make Azo, or at least a fair work alike. It all depends on how hard you want to work for it.

    Now tell me where you guys hid that thread. Either it was deleted or you have a very poor search engine.

    BTW, I poured a specimen, as you requested on my 'P' key and the key melted. What does that mean? Then a window came up that said "Un*^^&# Error". My computer has hiccups now.

    Thanks.

    PE
     
  8. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    PE--Are you looking for this thread?--

    http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21679

    I found it by clicking on your name, looking at your public profile, and finding the threads you've recently posted in. You can do this on your own name, if you've lost a thread you were active in.
     
  9. Daniel Lawton

    Daniel Lawton Member

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    Wasn't it recently revealed that other sources besides Michael and Paula had made the last large orders of AZO and pretty much finished off Kodak's supply? I'm not so sure its going to be available for as long as some people think. Its already been taken out of the lineup and each sheet used is a countdown to the end. I thought about buying a box when I was in B+H last month in case I ever get into LF but then I figured whats the point?
     
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    David, thanks but no. There was a thread started which updated us about the work of Michael and Paula re- Azo. It was in the contact printing section and seems to have vanished.

    A search did not reveal the recently started thread. Since I am old and prone to memory lapses, and seeing no information about deleted or moved threads, I immediately looked into my meds, what I was drinking and whether I was going insane.

    Since these don't 'seem' to be applicable, then I assume it must be one of you guys playing slight of hand. Of course, something new may be afoot, but since I just got new glasses 2 weeks ago, I really am not sure what it could be.

    Thanks.

    PE
     
  11. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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  12. wm blunt

    wm blunt Member

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    Thought I saw that too.........glad I'm not the only one!
     
  13. User Removed

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    I don't believe that making your own silver chloride paper, would be even nearly as good as the real thing. All of the charateristics of AZO I like, are more then just what the emultion is made of. Things like the fine glossy surface quality, single weight, and the sharpness of AZO could not really be obtained with an alt. process printing style.

    By the way. G3 AZO is gone. go visit the AZO forum for more info. The thread started here on APUG had to be deleted.
     
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  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    David, I disagree with McPhotoX. This is important to APUGGERS!

    It is an issue that will become more pressing as the situation with digital progresses and this forum should address the issues as they come up.

    But then, maybe I'm getting to wrapped up in it.

    PE
     
  16. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    We can certainly discuss the issue on APUG in this thread, or you can start one of your own.

    I didn't have any role in deleting the thread, but I can see the point that it makes more sense to respond to Michael Smith's post on Michael and Paula's forum than it does here.
     
  17. User Removed

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    I agree also. It is very important that it be discussed here on APUG. A good portion of AZO users are here on APUG, and many do not check the AZO forum that often. However, it was requested to me that I have that thread removed. I dont see anything wrong will still discussing the matter tho.
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, I must say that I can coat on glossy baryta SW FB and exactly match G3 Azo for speed and density range. The biggest problem is getting Baryta SW FB paper, not making the emulsion. One maker of SW FB glossy wants a minimum order of $10,000. They sent me 12 8x10 sheets for evaluation though.

    I respectfully disagree with deleting the thread. Sorry. That, to me, is a form of censorship in the interests of some higher goal that seems undefined or tenuouus to me but labeled 'consolidation'. I don't visit the Azo forum.

    Tsk, tsk, shame on me, but with trying to actually rescue you Azo lovers, I just don't have the time. Which do you want? Azo work alike emulsion or whatever.....?

    I spent my day trying to improve coating quality of 8x10 sheets of that 'so called' Azo paper of mine and next week will be working on 11x14 sheets of the Azo work alike.

    To paraphrase a saying "make it and they will buy it". Well, I can make it all I want, but I don't want to sell it. I'm going to give it to you and let you do what you want with it. In the mean-time, I'll be too busy to hunt for Azo threads all over the internet.

    PE
     
  19. Jim Chinn

    Jim Chinn Member

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    Someone designing and producing limited runs of paper or selling "kits" of uncoated paper and chemistry and coating tools is the only way a similar paper is going to again be available.

    AZO is now officially dead. For most people GR2 is not acceptable for final prints and it sound slike all the GR3 is now accounted for and no longer available (except from Ebay sellers unloading it for high prices)

    While a applaud and support Michael and Paula's efforts to come up with a similar paper, I noticed in their post that it depends on investors that were interested. My experience being around a lot of small businesses is that unless they can see a a pretty good chance of getting their money back they will not pony up the funds. I hope I am wrong. But the numbers involved to get a limited paper run would seem to involve getting LF photographers to pony up a sizable chunk of change to make a minimum purchase to prefill the run order. I just don't see many people coming forward with $500 or $1000 dollars unless they have a chance to test the paper first.

    Like I said I hope I am wrong and that they can get a paper made that works for everyone. In the meantime I think working with the ideas that PE is exploring is the prudent thing to do for those wanting a chloride contact paper.
     
  20. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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    David I hardly ever go to the azo forum. I was surprised that it got deleted. Many here don't go to the azo forum just like I don't. Why should we have to go to another forum to discuss a valid issue that also concerns those here? We don't go to the large format forum to discuss LF instead of doing it here. There are many more examples like that, so at least to me, I think the thread should be brought back to where it started. This is just my opinion.
     
  21. Mike A

    Mike A Member

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    I was all set to order my first box of AZO for my first crack @ contact printing in 11x14, and now this. I'm gonna try the Kentmere Bromide paper I was considering earlier this month. What a bummer this is, I hope Michael and Paula can find investors.
    Mike
     
  22. Photo Engineer

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    Aggie, thanks, I agree.

    Jim, yes I agree as well. I also feel that there would have to be several trial runs to establish the suitability of the product for the open market. This would increase the initial investment and decrease the ROI until a suitable product hits the market. The lag time and the number of trial runs will be the determining factor in success or failure.

    PE
     
  23. Sean

    Sean Admin Staff Member Admin

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    I have no problem at all with people discussing azo here. Ryan had deleted his own post content then asked if I could remove it. Since he already deleted the post content (people have a set time they can edit a post) I figured no point having a thread with no topic. People are free to discuss azo here till the cows come home, Ryans thread was just a judgement call based on him removing the content on his original post and asking if I could remove the rest. If he wants I can re-add it but looks like the discussion has picked up here again..
     
  24. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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  25. Photo Engineer

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    Jim is still making dye transfers with his Matrix Film work alike and they are quite beautiful. Jim has also posted his emulsion formula for Matrix Film.

    The bottom line is that a work-alike can do the job!

    His work is outstanding.

    I have a source now for Baryta FB DW paper in 3 surfaces. It may become generally available in the near future.

    PE
     
  26. Photo Engineer

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    Sean, this entire thread is in answer to your question.

    PE