HC 110 Reverse Engineering

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I have contacted with a University Analytical Chemistry Lab to get an quote for revealing the HC 110 Formula.

    My question is , how a lab identify only Kodak manufactured rare chemical ? Do labs get a update every year for every chemical ever manufactured in US ? Or the spectrum archive is specific to most known chemicals ?

    This is an big modern university lab with doping unit also and I am not sure whether they would succeed or not ?

    PE,

    What do you advise ?

    Umut
     
  2. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    An apparently close approximation to the formula, or the actual formula, is in the patent shown in the Film Developing Cookbook.
     
  3. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I know it but Patent is dated 1971 and nobody is agree on the correctness. In time some people claim some chemical inside of the mix and than replaced. People agree , todays formula is not the old one , if I followed the Forum correctly in 6 years , everything changed since 70s. If there is a way for lab to succeed , I prefer university report to heated fight.
     
  4. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Of course I will prepare a dossier with the all known or claimed facts. This will work great.
     
  5. EASmithV

    EASmithV Member

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    I wonder if Kodak will continue to make chemistry, or farm it out to Eastman Chemical when they collapse.
     
  6. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    Or continue to farm it out to Champion which they have been doing for some time already? I believe Champion is one of the major debt holders Kodak owes money to now.
     
  7. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    This may be great for informational and educational purposes, but let's get real: there are good chances that HC-110 contains compounds that only Kodak/Champion has access to or makes. In other words, buying HC-110 might be the cheapest way of obtaining those compounds. It might not be worth spending big money on finding out that this is indeed the case.
     
  8. Kevin Kehler

    Kevin Kehler Member

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    I wonder if the other problem might be not knowing what is in the formula, but how to correctly mix it or in what order to make a successful formulation. Much like baking, if you blend baking soda in with the butter and wonder why your cookies don't work out, it is not just what is in HC-110, but how to correctly make it.
     
  9. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    This has already been done. Over on the Dye Transfer forum there's a fellow in Australia named Andy
    Cross who precisely reverse engineered it, but he has access to true research lab facilities. It's a highly difficult product to duplicate, involving hazardous precursors. You can't do it in a home lab. Apparently Kodak no longer offers liquid developers in Australia due to hazmat shipping issues, so he
    made himself a lifetime supply in a single batch. The concentrate allegedly keeps for decades. HC110
    is still readily available here, so I don't know why anyone would even bother attempting to duplicate
    it here, though I notice Freestyle claims to have an actual substitute.
     
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    There are no proprietary chemicals in HC110 AFAIK. The secret is in the method of manufacture in which TEA is treated with SO2 gas to get a mix of a base and Sulfite. This makes the syrup water free for good stability. It is a tricky process for the individual that can cause an explosion if not done correctly.

    PE
     
  11. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Not only that, but SO2 is both very smelly and highly toxic and therefore generally not a gas you want around you, unless you are properly equipped and trained for it.
     
  12. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

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    Heck - nothin' to SO2. They work with it all the time at the Chevron refinery across town, and it has
    only blown up once this summer, and doubled our gasoline price only for a couple of months. Things
    are almost back to normal now.
     
  13. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, I forgot to add that they also bubble HBr gas into TEA to make the Bromide adduct to supply the pH balance and the Bromide ion as antifoggant.

    PE
     
  14. RattyMouse

    RattyMouse Member

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    TEA=triethanolamine?
     
  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Yes.
     
  16. Pioneer

    Pioneer Member

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    I think I will just continue to buy mine from Kodak. Maybe if I buy a bottle a month for the next year or two I'll have a large enough supply for my personal use.

    :D And probably a large enough supply to qualify as a large quantity generator for the EPA. :whistling:
     
  17. erikg

    erikg Member

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    I think Champion will continue with HC-110 no matter what happens with Kodak . If it does go away I imagine we will have much bigger problems to worry about.
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I use D76.
     
  19. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    iirc Kodak Australia doesn't import it, but we have no problem on having it shipped from the U.S. and receiving it. B&H has no problem sending it over.
     
  20. artonpaper

    artonpaper Subscriber

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    I loved HC-110 with Tri-X before they reformulated Tri-X and the developing times for dilution B are now too short for roll film on a reel. I have always found the grain structure and shadow density produced by the TX/HC110B combo to be much more to my liking than D-76. Rodinol has wonderful qualities, but for me HC-110 was it.

    Another thing about shelf life, I had someone give me bottles of very old HC-110. He said it worked fine. I saw a big difference in base fog, highlight separation, and D-Max areas when I processes a test roll (AKA a roll my wife shot). So it's shelf life is not infinite. Now that I got my old M2 repaired and fitted with a nice Summicron M lens, I'm playing with Tri-X in Rodinol, and T-Max 400 in HC-110B. Neither will be like the TX in HC-110. Sad face here.
     
  21. erikg

    erikg Member

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    Well, nothing can stay on the shelf forever and not change. Rodinal goes too. But, why stay with dilution B? You can go to a higher dilution if you want a longer time, HC-110 is remarkably consistent over a wide dilution range. I long ago switched to using ratios that I could mix without thinking too hard. 1:50, 1:75 etc.
     
  22. artonpaper

    artonpaper Subscriber

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    I have considered that and perhaps I need to try it.