HC110 and Ascorbic acid.

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by gainer, Aug 28, 2004.

  1. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Some time ago I wrote in Photo Techniques about "perverting" HC110 by adding ascorbic acid and carbonate. At that time I had not thought of Glycol or TEA. My latest experiment is the following:

    750 ml TEA
    32 g ascorbic or erythorbic acid
    Heat until dissolved

    Add 250 ml of HC110 concentrate.

    This mixture is a concentrate. It seems to be a pretty "hot" developer at 1+50 dilution with water. 8 minutes or so at 70 F will get about normal contrast with HP5+.
     
  2. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    I haven't completed tests. The previous version, with water and carbonate, was at least as good with regard to grain and gradation.
     
  3. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    Talk about bringing an old thread back to life.

    Pat, did you do any followup with this mixture?

    Mike
     
  4. Photo Engineer

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    Do you have comparison scans to demonstrate this?

    HC110, HC110 + additive. Identical pictures at the same magnification?

    PE
     
  5. Stephanie Brim

    Stephanie Brim Member

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    Yeah, I'd like to see this myself as a new HC-110 user. Sounds interesting.
     
  6. Photo Engineer

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    Yes, it is interesting to me as well. I have seen a lot of posts by Patrick, but very few (maybe no) side by side comparisions, just a verbal statement.

    A picture is worth a 1000 words Stephanie.

    PE
     
  7. BradS

    BradS Member

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    I used to work for the big automotive company in Dearborn...I saw the engineering talent, computer resources and time that went into doing things like the design of the intake manifolds....thinking of "improving" HC-110 kinda reminds me of kids who go down to "Super Shops" and lay down a week's pay on an after market, Edlebrock intake manifold or a set of after market headers.
     
  8. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Have mercy on a man in his 81st year. If I knew what to compare, side by side, I might do so. If you (any of you) have something you want to compare side by side with something I proposed, please do so. I did once upon a time do some doctoring up of HC110 which was published in Photo Techniques, but I thought that had included comparisons of portions of the same strip of film before and after.
    I have used a lot of HC110, both for film and paper. It has been several years since I bought any. There is no chance of buying any HC110 near here. When it comes to mail order in any case, I may as well buy the components of PC-TEA if I want a long lived organic concentrate. I can buy locally all but the phenidone or Metol for a quick water-mix developer for film or paper.
     
  9. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Besides, we are APUG. How would I convince you of the truth of what I say by sending digital information over the Internet? I can send the information you need to make the stuff and you can test it, as you would any new commercial developer, for yourself. Then you can tell me what's wrong with it.

    Come to think of it, I can make paraminophenol from Tylenol and use it with ascorbic acid and dissolve it in propylene glycol to make a developer concentrate to be used with any suitable alkali or dissolve it in TEA to make a single solution concentrate: thin it with water and use.
     
  10. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    I'm an 80 year old kid who didn't spend nearly as much on the "improved" (I don't remember calling it that) HC110 as I did on the original. Thinking of doing it without doing it does not give you the privilege of poking fun at me for doing it. If KODAK decides to cease manufacture of HC110 in quantities we can afford, will you then do what you are thinking of doing? I would expect something not quite so inventive, like using D-23 or D-76.

    The next step after the experiments with HC110 was PC-TEA, which a lot of people are using.

    If you want non-parallel parllels, how about this: The American woman, getting ready to go to the ball, puts on every piece of jewelry she has, looks in the mirror, then borows another piece from a friend. The French woman puts on what she thinks will be enough, looks in the mirror and removes piece. My father's mother was a Gaston by way of Ireland.
     
  11. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    Pat, I've seen a couple variations of your PC TEA formula in some threads around the net. Which one have you settled on?

    Mike
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Without data, it is useless to consider which one to use. Selection is based on result.

    PE
     
  13. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    My experience is a bigger carb, larger/straighter runners on the intake, and better exhaust flow does improve performance. After all it's just a big air pump.

    Mike
     
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  15. BradS

    BradS Member

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    Patrick,
    I apologize. I was not trying to be insulting. Such activities just kinda strike me funny...that's all.
     
  16. BradS

    BradS Member

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    I guess it all depends upon how you measure "performance". Does your definition include such considerations as: Reliability, Drive-ability, Idle quality, cold weather starting, Fuel Economy, cost, Noise, vibration and Harshness, Emissions, Compliance with Federal Motor Vehicle safety standards, packaging, maintainability, maintenance service, expected warranty costs, effects upon other components in the system, oil life....????

    I suspect not.
     
  17. Photo Engineer

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    I think that we see here that HC110 works. Patrick has said he can soup it up (no pun intended) by adding some things. My question is that for all of that extra chemistry and work, what do we gain? Patrick has not shown any real gain such as an HC110 processed negative and a souped up negative side by side at high magnification to show any similarity or improvemet in anything.

    If they are similar, then it is extra work for nothing, but if the souped up developer is superior in some way, then we have something.

    With the car example, there are performance measures that can be made. We just don't have someone telling us "this is better".

    So, Patrick, you have the two developers, how about some show and tell instead of just tell. When I make an emulsion, I make negatives and scan them and post them. When I make prints, same thing.

    PE
     
  18. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    I goofed up this thread.

    While seaching some old threads on HC110 I came across it and decided to ask Pat if he had done any follow-up work on the formula. I was really inquirying out of curiosity since I like using HC110. I was just trying to make conversation rather than trying to see if it was something I wanted to use.

    One of the things I like about APUG is kicking the tires, after all I'm a Goodyear guy.

    It was/is a four year old thread, that I probably should not have brought back to life.


    Mike
     
  19. Stephanie Brim

    Stephanie Brim Member

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    I also was just trying to ask more about the testing. Perhaps I can just do some of it myself...if I can get my hands on the chemicals required.
     
  20. Photo Engineer

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    Well, if I post something, I like to show the proof of the pudding so to speak. And, I'm almost as old as Patrick. So, I think it is fair to ask before we commit time and money to mixing these things. Patrick and others should show proof.

    I think that is fair. After all, the rest of us do that.

    PE
     
  21. Murray@uptowngallery

    Murray@uptowngallery Member

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    Bigger carbs - that's making me hungry.

    Hey, I have to come to the defense of the distinguished gentleman from WV as well as the distinguished gentleman from NY.

    I love Mr Gainer's posts - he literally comes up with recipes from the 'salt of the earth' - reminds me of when I come home and look to see what there is to eat and I don't see anything- my wife says just take this and that and two of these..and 'hey, this is good stuff!' His willingness to contribute

    Yet I also respect Mr Mowrey (PE)'s uniquely profound and profoundly unique knowledge and experience, willingness to share what were once probably largely guarded proprietary trade secrets. His cautions and commercial experience help me keep a balance.

    Between the combination of the two I gain some interesting insight and some restrained perspective. I know they are not 'on the same page' regarding a number of issues, but I'm glad they are both here.
     
  22. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    Thanks Murray, I wish I had posted that as I fully agree.

    Mike
     
  23. Stephanie Brim

    Stephanie Brim Member

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    I'm curious about this...therefore I think I'll try it as soon as I can get the chemicals. Half the recipe at first, though, as I don't want to use up half of my HC-110. Besides, at 1:50 dilution, 500ml will last quite a while.

    I'll try it with different films as well. I'll have a roll of FP4 as well as a roll of Pan-F to use. I can probably test with Tri-X and HP5 as well. Scans will take a while, though, as I do not have a scanner capable of doing film at the moment.

    So, to half it:

    375ml of TEA
    16g of Ascorbic asid
    heat until dissolved

    add 125ml HC-110 concentrate.

    Dilute 1:50.

    Any advice?
     
  24. Murray@uptowngallery

    Murray@uptowngallery Member

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    Having the scanner is only half the issue. I must have 5 rolls that were processed that I don't have time or want to scan yet. Scanner is under the computer hutch with stacks of things needing scanning on it. All that has to be hauled out to access it. What I need is a TABLE.
     
  25. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Before you do, try:

    100 ml TEA
    9 grams ascorbic acid
    0.2 grams Phenidone
    Heat to about the temperature of hot cocoa and stir it til it dissolves. It will stay dissolved after it cools. Don't bother with the HC110. For use, 15 ml (1/2 tsp) with water to make 150 ml and develop FP4+ about 8 minutes at 70 F. The stock gets pretty thick and can freeze at about 70 F, or it can supercool.

    My allusion to the jewelry was to express the opinion that sometimes simple is good enough if not better. Ascorbate ion is a vitamin, an antioxidant, and a photographic reducing agent.
     
  26. Murray Kelly

    Murray Kelly Member

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    Also, Patrick, I recommend your PCB (phenidone, VitC, Borax- in another thread).
    Probably about the same pH and really simple. Slow disolving borax would be my only complaint! :smile:

    Even worked well with Copex Rapid microfilm.

    Has become my 'standard' for simplicity and results.

    Murray