Hc110 simplified.

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by JBrunner, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Following many many questions from persons just starting out, who have been baffled by the archaic dilutions and sub-dilutions of HC110, I have created a little page about using it 1:50 direct from the bottle.

    http://www.jasonbrunner.com/hc110.html

    If anybody switches to this or who already does it, has or comes up with times for emulsion/speed combo's not already present, I'll be pleased to add them to the page.

    J
     
  2. mabman

    mabman Member

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    Just curious, what made you decide to use 1:50 in the first place, as opposed to an established "official" or quasi-official dilution? Are there development characteristics about using 1:50 that are different that other dilutions (better tonal range, grain differences, etc)?
     
  3. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    1:50 is super easy to calculate, and creates forgiving times, handy for expansion and contraction, and especially important for the novice developer, who may be still getting a handle on things. Tonally, etc., I can't tell any difference from Dil B, I suppose somewhere somebody thinks they can, or maybe even does.

    The "official" dilutions, and intermediate "working solution" are simply a pain, especially for the beginner, and unused Hc110 as a concentrate keeps like the dickens.

    The original dilutions made sense once upon a time, but now they are just cumbersome, especially for those just starting out.
     
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  4. PVia

    PVia Member

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    Unofficial Dilution H is pretty simple at 1:62...just as easy to divide by 63 as it is 51, and then the times are just double the published Dilution B times.
     
  5. dmax

    dmax Member

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    Jason,
    Thanks for setting up the page. I too have been working with HC 110 for decades using multiples of 25 for dilutions (1:25, 1:50, 1:75, 1:100, etc.) for various films. It is particularly convenient for those of us who are metric - no need for calculators to figure out ratios, since 25 (or 50) is an arithmetic factor of 1000ml. Working out the multiples is far more straightforward and uncomplicated.

    You are correct in pointing out that it is far easier to prepare a working solution this way from the concentrate/syrup, and that since HC 110 is inexpensive, one-shot use is the way to go. It also promotes consistency of results. I should also point out that I have found little - if any - differences between using dilutions such as 1:50 vs. the "unofficial" dilution of 1:64 (twice that of Dilution B) to matter in real-world terms. I suspect that the differences are even more negligible at even higher dilutions (say 1:100 or 1:150 for stand and semi-stand development). I use the same agitation procedure as you do, and process at 20C/68F as well. I'll try to pull out development data for various roll films that I use and hopefully I can contribute that to your page.
     
  6. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    I use a close to H, 15ML into 1000ML. 1000 works with both my nikkor tanks for 120mm and my old Jobo tube for 4x5 used on a bessler base.

    Mike
     
  7. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Things like "close to H, and twice B times" are thoroughly confusing to the novice.
    We've been clowning around with these stupid dilutions for so long we can't see the forest through the trees. I only realized this trying to explain it to persons new to developing, and they say things like "1:47? Why 47?"

    Unless you take a Kodak history class, there is no basis for these kinds of silly dilutions.

    "1:50 for 8 minutes" is something they can get their teeth into, and allows them concentrate on learning the things that matter. I mean, have you ever needed to take a half an hour to explain to somebody how to mix Rodinal?
     
  8. Thanasis

    Thanasis Member

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    Nice and simple. Thanks very much! But when are you going to post the youtube video? :wink:
     
  9. Iwagoshi

    Iwagoshi Subscriber

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    Jason,

    From the video:
    Yes the apron makes you look fat, Or is it PHAT! in todays vernacular.

    HC-110: I'm trying Dilution B, 1 oz shot of syrup (straight) plus 31 shots of water. I hope that's what "1:31" means, but I'm just a noob, what do I know.

    Terry
     
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  10. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think dilutions are designed around whether you work in ounces (fairly easy to measure 1+15, 1+31, 1+47 to get multiples of 1 pint) or metric units (1+19, 1+39, 1+79 giving nice decimal numbers in multiples of 20), with a few general ranges for different effects.
     
  11. David William White

    David William White Member

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    This is pretty amazing. I decided upon 1:50 just last month. First because the time for AristaEDU-Ultra 100 is so short in 'B' that it's not recommended (and kinda short for PanF+, too) Secondly to make the math simpler for 1/2 litre & 1 litre, and lastly for economy.

    So I'm having good results with:

    AristaEDU-Ultra 100, rated at 100: 20C, 6.5 minutes [half a dozen rolls]
    Ilford PanF+, rated at 50: 20C, 5.5 minutes [about a dozen rolls]

    David.
     
  12. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    Who knew there could be such a broad opinion base as to what is simple? 1:50. 1:37. 15:1000 all are just starting points on the way to seeing what works for each individual.

    If it takes me a half an hour to explain dilution ratios, I probably need to work a little on my teaching skills. :smile:

    Mike
     
  13. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    In the interest of KISS, when I took 1 oz. of HC110 goop, and added it to 31 oz. of water, I got one quart of useable film developer.

    So, if I choose to go 1:50, and have a tank that holds 500 ml of solution, and I wish to fill the tank, how much goop do I use and how much water?

    John (perplexed) in Mount Vernon, Virginia USA
     
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  15. Jordan

    Jordan Member

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    John -- you would need 10 ml of HC-110 "goop" and 490 ml of water.
     
  16. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Which technically is 1:49, not 1:50, but the difference surely wouldn't matter.

    Matt
     
  17. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

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    Matt,
    Yeh, that's what I figured. 1:49. 1:50, as we say hereabouts "Close enough for gummint work."

    John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA
     
  18. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, lets see....
    Take the normal Hc110 from-concentrate-to-stock-to-working dilutions complete from a working dilution (1:3) that is then mixed to give A-(1:3)-B-(1:7)-C-(1:4)-D-(1:9)-E-(1:11)-or F-(1:19) or you could direct dilute for A-(1:15) -B-(1:31)-C-(1:19)-D-(1:39) E-(1:47)-F-(1:79)-G-(1:119)or H-(1:63) with eight possible choices and eight possible times for one single emulsion and film speed and then run it by somebody who is completely new to developing and just grasping the concept of dilutions, answer their questions until they understand, and get back to me. :smile:

    Or you could say "1:50 for 8 minutes, and we'll look at your exposures".

    I guess I'd rather have them shooting and developing, over needing to unzip in order to show off my big brain cell.

    But hey, whatever floats your boat, man. :smile:
     
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  19. BradS

    BradS Subscriber

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    Q: is this the argument room?
    A: no, this is the verbal abuse room. the argument room is two doors down.... and take that yellow goopy shit with you...



    Oh...Jason, Thanks for putting up the informative page. I sincerely appreciate the effort and agree it's high time for a simple introduction to the magical yellow syrup. Well done.
     
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  20. Curt

    Curt Subscriber

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    I'm not sure that I'm ready for "simplification", besides, who are you? Your the guy who left us hanging for video part three, the Polaroid print!:munch:
     
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  21. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Guilty as charged. (I guess it's not like Who Shot JR?) I'll get that up this week.

    And that was good one, Art.
     
  22. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Hi David,

    I added your info to the page, and gave you the credit. Hope that's ok.
     
  23. David William White

    David William White Member

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    Super. Appreciate the effort, and prefer the metric-friendly 1:50, especially since 1:31 is a bit too active for some films. And I DO remember the nonsense of going through the two recommended dilutions (with a slide rule in hand) to arrive at my 500ml of working solution.

    I'll check back on your page to see if anyone recommends alternate times for PanF+ at 1:50.

    D.
     
  24. janjohansson

    janjohansson Member

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    the ratio concentrate to dilutant is 1:49, which is interesting to some degree.
    however the ratio of concentrate to final solution is 1:50, which is what we
    really are talking about.
     
  25. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

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    Good idea. Better to make it simple when you can.
    I love the video...
    G.
     
  26. RobC

    RobC Member

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    Just to annoy Jason cos I know he loves it when I do, it's even easier to say:

    1+49 is the ratio. Why? Because 1+49 = 50 and if you have a 500ml tank then the amount of goop you use is 500/50 = 10. 49 lots of 10 is 490 and 490 + 10 is 500.
    Dividing by 50 is so much easier than dividing by 51:D

    And I agree 1+49 is a good dilution because it gives times sufficient for use in inversion tanks.

    And Jason, you may like to add to your page that in Europe some HC110 sold in sizes less than 1 litre are not the same strength as the 1 litre bottles and therefore require different dilutions from what is quoted on your page. Many have been caught out by this little ploy from kodak.

    The 500ml bottle dilutes 1+9 for Dilution B whereas the 1 litre bottle dilutes 1+31 for dilution B.

    Now that's what I call confusing:D