Heavy hand of the law

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by Ian Grant, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    My wife has asked me to post this and bring attention to the Politically sanctioned destruction of one of the worlds more important archaeological sites.

    Allianoi is/was the best preserved Roman Hot Springs Spa in the world, with many other significant remains as well.

    Unfortunately it's the first time something like this has happened to such an important archaeological site in Turkey so conservationists etc haven't really got their act together, the Allianoi website's English link says no translation available, Look at their images they speak for themselves.

    The Turkish Culture Minister and Environment Ministers say it's insignificant, unimportant, there was nothing there.

    However they didn't seem to think so today when they posted these guys at the site:

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    Most of the site's now buried, but that's easily undone before flooding. This is about all that remains visible (reduced to approx 2% of the original).


    [​IMG]

    I was there with an LF camera, there was to be a last visit with the archaeologist who'd spent 15+ years excavating the site, but instead we met the Riot Squad :D

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    The Turkish Prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdo─čan's Praetorian Guards made their presence known.

    I make no apology for these images being digital. I was originally there to also make LF film images for myself, but when access was denied I had a job to do documenting the protest for some magazines etc.

    Ian
     
  2. Jeff Kubach

    Jeff Kubach Member

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    Ain't that something! I hope it's not contagious.

    Jeff
     
  3. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    How big a bribe was given to the Turkish Culture Minister and Environment Ministers?

    Steve
     
  4. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Well the protest moved to Pergamon. My wife's an International Tour Guide (Turkish) they laid a black wreath at the chairlift station :D

    A friend of the Prime minister has built a chair lift to the Acropolis, damaging the city walls and other remains, it was illegal, but the US backed government has just passed laws that make it immune from future prosecution :smile:

    I should add the Jendarme were also carrying sub-machine guns !!!!

    Ian
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2010
  5. Metroman

    Metroman Member

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    Ian strange you posted that as I had previously read this last week!
     
  6. Dan Henderson

    Dan Henderson Member

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    I was sympathetic to this issue until until it was blamed on my country.
     
  7. fschifano

    fschifano Member

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    That's right blame it on the big dog on the block. Why not? 'Course when you all get into trouble who you gonna call? It's always our fault until you need us, then it's "can you help us out?", and of course, we usually do. And what do we get for it? Snide little backhanded comments from the peanut gallery.
     
  8. DWThomas

    DWThomas Subscriber

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    Umm, but let's be honest, our dear old USA has a long track record of propping up exploitive and repressive governments, usually to collect cheap natural resources. The last six or seven decades of such stuff are producing the blow-back that's causing some of our major problems today. Of course, in the Middle East, the Brits and some others had a hand in things too, we were not alone.
     
  9. Dan Henderson

    Dan Henderson Member

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    I have been wondering all day how much better things might be in the US right now if we didn't "back" other governments, or as my countryman DW suggests, prop up exploitative and repressive governments. What if we just took care of ourselves and let other countries look after their own interests? We might not be trillions of dollars in debt, we would probably have enough of a surplus to cut taxes as the conservatives would like, and would have more money to spend on social programs that the liberals want. Several thousand of the most incredible young soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines in the world would still be with their families now. We could use the resources we are now spending on providing "security" and "nation building" and "democracy" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other countries of the world to secure our own borders against terrorists, drug smugglers and illegal aliens, solving 3 of our problems at once. Surely, Germany and Japan can stand on their own by now and don't really need our bases and armed forces and equipment in their countries any longer. Just pay our UN dues and contribute forces to ISAF like other countries, and call it good enough...

    ...then on the evening news Diane Sawyer tells me about an Afghan girl who was married against her will to an abusive husband who forced her to sleep in a stable with animals. She ran away and was captured, and the Taliban gave her husband permission to cut off her nose and ears, which he did, leaving her for dead. She managed to crawl to the house of her uncle, who refused to help her. She finally reached and was given lifesaving medical attention by whom??? A US Army medical team. She ended up receiving cosmetic surgery to restore her nose and ears where???? The US, of course.
     
  10. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    sorry to hear of this ian.

    maybe it has to do with the current political elections and climate ?
    this isn't the first time the government there has suggested this sort of thing ....
    it happened at ani, and a lot of the areas in eastern anatolia.

    maybe "eco-tourism" will help save this endangered area ... i hope so !
     
  11. clayne

    clayne Member

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    Pretending we did that, Americans would completely shit their pants before they are forced to adjust to the hugely increased cost of living as a result of now very expensive resources.

    Your average citizen here has no idea. No idea how good they have it.
     
  12. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    john, you've summed it up with "maybe it has to do with the current political elections and climate ?".

    I'd say to Dan & Frank that they should read and look what's really happening, what the political climate really is and remember the US has a long track record of backing the wrong side. Then remember the huge International fuss when Pakistan banned Youtube etc recently.

    Youtube's been banned for years here, Geocities (and its successor), some Google services and many other websites (over 6,000) are also banned and it's extremely likely Facebook will be the next.

    Ian
     
  13. jamesgignac

    jamesgignac Member

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    Ian, I'm also sorry to hear about this. The only upshot to this kind of vulgar and militant abuse of the land to us photographers is that we get to document it all - and it usually makes for good photos.

    The other point you mention about access to information and modes of communication via the internet is more worrying to me (particularly now that I'm very thoroughly exposed to it behind the Chinese wall.) We can't take photos of the internet but at least we can continue to photograph the small parts of our world that we loved that are now going to hell. Keep on top of it - you might not be able to change anything but it's certainly worth capturing the constant changes that are happening.

    If you are of the activist breed than you should get a move on to figure out what's next on the chopping block. Moving from spacious Canada to the populous China I have been able to learn first hand what 'progress' looks like - I've only been here for four months but the landscape shifts so quickly here it can be difficult to recognize some areas from one month to the next. Where I'm living (near Xizhimen in Beijing) they just keep putting up new apartment blocks and I almost got lost on my way home the other day because there was a new building where there were only a few small shops a few weeks ealier.

    Thanks for sharing.

    p.s. - those outfits on the guards are ridiculous :smile:
     
  14. Leigh Youdale

    Leigh Youdale Member

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    Well, for one thing the US would probably be much better liked. It seems to me that the very admirable "Can Do" attitude that defines much of post WW2 America, when applied to the US's self-appointed role as the world's policeman after Britain could no longer sustain itself in the role, has become a rather blunt instrument when applied to foreign policy. The self-belief is impressive but the implementation has proven naive and clumsy. I am reminded of one of our (short-lived) Prime Ministers who defined his strategy as "Crash Through or Crash". He crashed, politically, and it seems that wherever you look at American foreign excursions in the last 40 years the same thing has happened and is happening again today in Iraq and Afghanistan. Shock and Awe - or crash through - was just a slogan. There was no strategy behind it. Vietnam was supposed to end differently too but you can see the same sort of processes playing out again. God help the world if Iran self-detonates and America goes in to once more "liberate" yet another bunch of oppressed people who don't actually want the Western version of democracy.
    And I haven't even touched on the formation and continued support of Israel as a factor in the midst of all this - a country that was founded on terrorism itself, although they find it convenient to deny it today.

    The story about the young woman is distressing and conflicts mightily with Western/Christian values (and that's another whole debate on its own!), but is that reason enough to wage war on another country, including killing civilians in the process? I don't think so. Who has the most blood on their hands?