Help on C41 processing please..!

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by Redu, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. Redu

    Redu Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Location:
    Istanbul, Tu
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I've been developing B&W for sometime at home. It's no big deal. But the places that i can get my negative rolls developed are getting less and less, more and more expensive and the results are getting worse and worse. So... that's gotto be done at home as well. I've got (what people call) a dip and dunk processor with 3 tanks, one for each developer, bleach and fix. For intermediate washing stages i'll use an external tank (bucket) of warm water. From what i've read on the net the steps are

    1) Presoaking in water
    2) Development (3':15")
    3) Water rinse
    4) Bleach (depends on the chemical but i guess something like 6':30")
    5) Water rinse
    6) Fix (as bleach)
    7) Stabilizer (pass if you don't have one)
    8) Runing warm water for 10 min.
    9) Wipe and Dry

    Question 1 : At what stage i can turn the lights on? I guess it's the end of "fixing stage" but can't make sure of it.
    Question 2 : I haven't got a bleach starter but only replenisher. It's a Kodak RA Flexicolor Bleach Replenisher (LORR). Can i use bleach replenisher without a starter by diluting it with water? Say 4 parts of water to 1 part Bleach replenisher. How would that effect the timing?

    Thanks to you..!
     
  2. wclark5179

    wclark5179 Member

    Messages:
    503
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Can you turn the lights on with your dip & dunk process? I just use a Paterson or stainless steel with reel(s) system and for that I can turn the lights on after the film is loaded on to the reel(s) and put into the container with the top on.

    For the developer I place the tank into a pan of water (102 degrees) to maintain temperature during developing. The other steps are not as critical for constant temp.

    I don't use replenisher. Is it worth it? Depends on how much color film you process.

    Try Arista 41 from Freestyle. I use it and Am very satisfied with the results. They use a Blix which is bleach & fixer combined. Works for me. Takes less time & I like that. I buy the kit that has the liquid chemicals already provided for stock and I dilute for working.

    The instructions for Hand Tank or Dip & Dunk:

    Step 1 Pre-Soak 1 min @ 102 degrees

    Step 2 Developer 3.5 min. @ 102 degrees.

    Step 3 Blix 6.5 min @ 95-105 degrees.

    They recommend taking the tank lid off for the rest of the steps listed below..

    Step 4 Wash 3.0 min. @95-105 degrees.

    Step 5 Stabilizer 1/2 to 1 min. @ room temp.

    Step 6 Dry the film

    The instructions have chemical reuse & solution capacities sections. Once I'm done with my batch of films I throw away the working solutions.

    Here is a pdf on Freestyles Arista:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/AristaC41.pdf

    Hope this helps you!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2010
  3. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Swap 7 & 8. So, stabilizer is the final rinse.

    And go directly to bleach from developer. This is the usual practice. Water rinse can cause development to continue irregularly.

    And you don't need to wash for 10 minutes if the water changes well. 5 minutes is surely enough. 2- or 3-stage washing, or dumping the wash water a few times, is recommended.

    Bleach doesn't need a starter.

    You probably could turn the lights on in the halfway of the bleach.
     
  4. Redu

    Redu Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Location:
    Istanbul, Tu
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Hey... thank you very much guys. Hrst, you've been very helpful..! So the correct order is

    1) Presoaking in water
    2) Development (3':15")
    3) Bleach (depends on the chemical but i guess something like 6':30")

    4) Water rinse
    5) Fix (as bleach)
    6) Runing warm water for 5~6 min.
    7) Stabilizer (foto-flo if you don't have a stabilizer, pass if you have neither)
    8) Wipe and Dry

    where bold stages are to be performed in the dark. One last thing; Can i use foto flo instead of a stabilizer?
     
  5. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Location:
    Tufts Univer
    Shooter:
    35mm
    You can turn the lights on once the film is in the bleach step. I'd give it 30 seconds though. Bleach does not need a starter, nor fix. The stabilizer must be the final chemical to touch the film, and cannot be skipped. You need 3 minutes running wash. BTW wash must be at temperature, though stabilizer can be at room temperature.

    Bleach comes pre-diluted. Diluting it 1:4 would kill it.

    EDIT: No you cannot use photo flo. Color film stabilizer prevents bacteria from growing on the film. You must use kodak stabilizer (or another color stabilizer) diluted to specifications. I typically mix it with distilled water to prevent gunk.

    Do not wipe. Just hang.

    Bleach III takes 6.5 mins, Bleach SM takes only 1. It depends. If you are unsure use 6.5 minutes; it can't hurt.
     
  6. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    As Nicholas said, use a proper stabilizer. Don't skip it. If you have to scratch-mix it, you can probably use photo-flo AND very dilute formalin (formaldehyde), which is the old stabilizing agent that should work also on modern film (hopefully).

    You can wipe if you want, but dip your squeegee in the stabilizer solution before you do it. I like to wipe as I find it eliminates drying marks on my workflow.
     
  7. i40west

    i40west Member

    Messages:
    23
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I've eliminated drying marks by mixing photo-flo into the stabilizer itself. Not doing that, I have found no way to dry the film usably; the stabilizer leaves drying marks that are bad enough to see from the next room, and leaves the negatives basically unusable.
     
  8. Redu

    Redu Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Location:
    Istanbul, Tu
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thank you Nicholas. I was a little confused on the use of bleach replenisher. The bleach replenisher that i have is the only one that i can find. The market demand seems to be only for replenishers. However reading this post in a previous thread i understand it can also be used as a fresh bleach too. OK it's solved. (i think)

    Thank you hrst. I have photo-flo. Today i'll try to get some formalin (formol) from a pharmacy store. I assume photo-flo and formalin mixes 1:1 and then diluted 25:1 or so with water before the use right? I believe the dilution water has to be sort of distilled or so to eliminate drying marks. Tap water is full of lime here for instance.
     
  9. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Try to google for C-41 formulas/recipes to find the "correct" formalin content. It's probably much less than 25:1 if you begin with 40% formalin. It's very toxic, be careful not to breathe or spill it!
     
  10. Redu

    Redu Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Location:
    Istanbul, Tu
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Googled and found figures like 200:1 photo-flo and 100:1 formalin dilution with water for home made C41 stabilizer. Such as 5ml photo-flo and 10ml formalin mixed to 500ml water and then more water added to make 1lt C41 stabilizer.
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,100
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Mix up 1 liter of normal Photo Flo 200, and add 5 - 10 ml of 37% Formalin. (this latter is based on your tolerance of the odor of formalin - I used the higher value)

    As for the normal Kodak C41 stabilzer leaving marks on film - ain't gonna happen! That stabilizer has been tested out for years so something else is going on.

    PE
     
  12. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    345
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Where can I find this 37% Formalin from? Pharmacy stores or anywhere else? I have never seen one anywhere. I probably did not search hard enough but so far I have not been able to find it.
     
  13. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,100
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It is hard to get nowdays due to toxicity. Morticians use it by the gallon.

    Sorry I cannot help except to say that the Kodak or Fuji final rinse is the alternative.

    PE
     
  14. Nikanon

    Nikanon Member

    Messages:
    370
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    what are the dilutions of each chemical to make a working solution, the arista C-41 kit for 1 quart does not list dilutions
     
  15. bob100684

    bob100684 Member

    Messages:
    509
    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Shooter:
    35mm
  16. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,100
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Those tablets will not substitute for the final rinse.

    PE
     
  17. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    345
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    PE, I already use Kodak Final Rinse for my films. But I have quite some Vericolor-III that needs to use the old stabilizer, which is no longer available. That's why I need to find Formalin to make my own stabilizer. I think it is available on the internet. I will order one small bottle online.
     
  18. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,100
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Try looking up paraformaldehyde or trioxymethylene. These can be used to make formaldehyde.

    PE
     
  19. Redu

    Redu Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Location:
    Istanbul, Tu
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    @ mtjade2007; As i understand the most common use of formalin is parasite treatment on aquarium fish nowadays. A quick search on ebay reveals info on brands and prices. You should be able to obtain it from a local pet shop. However reading the specs i understand these aquarium ones are pre diluted form of formalin. They contain only 3% formaldehyde. So it must be 13:1 diluted Formalin (39% folmaldehyde). Accordingly needs another 8:1 dilution for C-41 stabilizer use. Am i right?

    On the other hand i bought a 100ml proper (37% formaldehyde) formalin yesterday from a chemical store. Not all pharmacies carry it but chemical warehouses/stores all have it. Very cheap stuff.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2010
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,100
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, N
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you used 10 ml of 37% formalin, then that is 3.7 grams of formalin.

    If you have 3% formalin then you should use 17 x more or 170 ml of 3% formalin. (I hope I did that math right :D check me out please as I did it in my head )

    PE
     
  21. RobertV

    RobertV Restricted Access

    Messages:
    1,057
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Location:
    the Netherla
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Formaline (37%) you can get at the Pharmacy, that means here in Holland. You only have to sign a paper for what purpose it's used. Regulations will be different worldwide. But in my case it's not a problem to get it.
    For 1 ltr. stabilizer I use 27ml Formaline of 37%. The same amount is mentioned in the Amaloco darkroom journal. The stuff is nasty so take the right precautions.
     
  22. Redu

    Redu Member

    Messages:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Location:
    Istanbul, Tu
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Actually i think none of us is correct.

    First; Let me correct myself; fish parasite medicine Kordon Formalin.3 (3% formaldehyde) is not 13:1 pre-diluted but 12:1 pre-diluted Formalin (39%) So that it contains 30gr formaldehyde in a liter (1000ml). Accordingly has to be diluted furhter 7:1 to contain 30gr formaldehyde in 8000ml (aka 3.75gr/lt) So that i would mix 125ml of Kordon Formalin.3 with 875ml of distilled water to get one liter of stabilizer. I hope this is right.
     
  23. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

    Messages:
    345
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    There used to be a science shop in town here in San Jose. I will check it out. If they don't sell it then I will try a pet shop. Thanks for all the replies. Glad that I can shoot those Vericolor-III film again. I shot it long time ago and liked its colors very much. Have quite some rolls in the freezer. I hope they are still usable for snap shots when I go hiking again.
     
  24. georgegrosu

    georgegrosu Member

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Location:
    Bucharest, R
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I used for negative color process (ECN 2) an "improved” stabilization with 30ml / l formalin. I think formalin is the most effective antibacterial substance.
    I know that formalin was used in embalming the dead. Maybe the pharmacy or the sellers of chemical reagents.
    I do not think are problems for the purchase of a small amount.
    George
     
  25. OldBikerPete

    OldBikerPete Subscriber

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Location:
    Melbourne, A
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    If you insert a buffered acid stop bath as step 2a, you should be able to turn the lights on after that completes since development will be completely stopped (mind you, I always use Jobo daylight tanks, so I've never put this to the test). If you do use a stop bath, you will extend the useful life of your bleach and your fixer since the destructive dilution by alkaline developer will be eliminated (The bleach is by far the most expensive chemical in the 41 process).

    You MUST use the stabiliser as the final solution and NOT finish up with a wash, so swap 7 & 8.