Horrid split toning with MGIV WT & KRST - who the @&#%$@!!! "improved" MGIV WT????

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Nicholas Lindan, May 11, 2012.

  1. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    Ilford's MGIV WT paper used to tone wonderfully in Kodak Rapid Selenium 1:9 - the paper would take on a lovely warm-brown tint in the shadows and the mid-greys, while forming a slight golden tone in the highlights.

    I just got in a new box of FB WT paper and the paper now split tones in the most horrible fashion: deep tones go a plum-purple while mid tones and highlights retain an olive-green tint.

    mgivwtse001.jpg (saturation turned up a notch to show colors better on a computer screen)

    Is anyone else having the same problems?

    I want the old paper back. Or do folks have a suggestion for a replacement...
     
  2. pgomena

    pgomena Member

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    That's frightening. I hope it's a fluke - as you say, it's beautiful when toned. Or was.

    Peter Gomena
     
  3. Vaughn

    Vaughn Subscriber

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    Anything else changed (developer, fixer, time in the fixer, water supply, etc?)

    People working and split toning Portriga Rapid back in the day used to get different results with the same paper batch depending on the water supply and/or other factors.
     
  4. NB23

    NB23 Member

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    Water temp?
     
  5. Simon R Galley

    Simon R Galley Subscriber

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    Dear Nicholas,

    It is the same paper, same base nothing has changed.......

    Our emulsion batches are identical, not similar, identical....

    Something must have changed :

    please give me the batch number and I will check it out here.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :
     
  6. Doremus Scudder

    Doremus Scudder Member

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    Nicholas,

    I've had similar split toning problems sporadically with other papers (notably Seagull GF grade 2). Although I have done no tests to confirm, it seems that my toning solutions are affected by toning different papers in them. In other words, I have noticed a difference in both toner activity and the occurrence of an unpleasant amount of split toning (as you describe) with certain papers when other brands were toned in between.

    I have even noticed that some papers seem to "kill" the toner for other papers for a while. I have no idea what the cause of this may be, or what constituent of a paper might contribute to this, but it has happened to me often enough that I believe it to be more than coincidence. It also seems that after a while, the toner "settles down" again to its usual level and type of activity.

    If you are toning other papers together with your MG, then you may want to mix a fresh batch of toner and see if your paper tones as it used to.

    Hope this helps,

    Doremus

    www.DoremusScudder.com
     
  7. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Strangely the split toned effect is quite desirable to some photographers, Thomas Joshua Cooper exploits split toning wit Selenium toner to great effect.

    It's a combination of paper, the age of that paper, developer choice, temperature, dilution, exposure and development time that controls how a print finally tones. I often work to get maximum warmth that means longer exposures and shorter development times often at slightly warmer temperatures and I will often aim for this split toning.

    Very fresh warm tone paper tends to react to toners much faster to KRST and I noticed a differance between MGWT that was fairly new and the same box a year later. This isn't unique to MGWT it was ven more marked with the last batches of Forte Polywarmtonw which gave very greenish results when new but settled after a few months.

    Ian
     
  8. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I am using fresh emulsion Ilford Warmtone 20 x24 and 11x14 as of yesterday with no problems with selenium toner... 1:5 45secs , completely same as years past.
     
  9. dpurdy

    dpurdy Member

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    I do some toning for a client on the Ilford WT and he likes it to be toned to the completely reddish color. When taking it to a complete color change it always split tones along the way. Oriental WT does the same thing.
    Dennis
     
  10. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    I have some older 8x10 WT paper that I use for work prints. It was processed alongside prints made on the new 11x14 stock. The prints made on the older paper don't show any split toning.

    I'll agree that there are a whole lot of variables that can affect toning results. But that new and old paper tone differently when processed side by side (OK, there was an hour between them ...) points to a difference in paper.

    Ilford's emulsion consistency is exemplary. Without it DA's whole exposure control system [or RH's for that matter] wouldn't work. I work on a print with smaller paper and then crank the head up, adjust the exposure and get an identical prints from boxes of paper purchased years apart. And when untoned the two prints were identical, as expected. The difference only appeared when the larger print was toned.

    Maybe I just need to age paper a few years before using it [insert smileys if you need them].

    I'll mix up fresh chems next week and try again. I have to clean the place up so the housekeeper can find the floor to vacuum it, and then it is off to John Power's get-together.

    * * *

    Split toning is caused by the two (or three) emulsions that make up VC paper reacting to selenium in a different fashion. Where in the tonal range the split occurs and the severity of the split changes with changes in contrast filtration. Modern papers that are sold as 'fixed grade' are often crypto-VC papers made with two emulsions with different fixed sensitivities. The "black circle/white box" Oriental paper had a noticeable steep spot in the HD curve where the curves of the constituent emulsions overlapped. See the application note on the DA web site http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/appnotevcworkings.pdf for more on VC paper.

    The late Forte Polywarmtone paper had the most outrageous split toning. Dark tones went a chocolate brown while light tones were completely unaffected. Although chemistry and phases of the moon can affect split toning, the paper seems to play a large role. Apart from pathologies like Forte, I have never had split toning problems to this degree before.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2012
  11. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Most emulsions from major manufactureres are blends whether films or papers and have been for many years, I wouldn;t take too much account of what's written on sites like DarkrooAutomation.

    Many people want the split toning ability, it's not a fault it's an attribute to expoloit or suppress. As I said previously Thomas Joshua Cooper exploits it to its full as did another American photographer Olivia Parker, both achieving exquisite results.

    Having seen that the effects of the green tinge is greater with very fresh emulsions on a few occasions now I have to contradict Simon & Bob here, a lot depends though on how you handle a papers with regards to exposure and development time and you can loose almost eliminate it but varying exposure/development time.

    Ian