How to get 68deg from your faucet?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by ezwriter, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. ezwriter

    ezwriter Member

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    In my apt the water feels cool (using bathtub as darkroom) but was surprised that its 85deg F. My developer D76 calls for 68 deg. I can get the the chems to 68 in a tub of water/ice cubes but
    how do i wash at this temp? Even worse, when i turn the water down the temp goes to 100deg! Full blast it goes down to 85.
    Thats the slowest/worst part of developing so far- getting the chem bathtub down to 68.

    2-My RZ67 can take 10 exp on 120 film or 20 on 220. Found that 10 exp goes by really quick! Why would anyone NOT use 220 film? i have that film back too but haven't bought any yet.
    Thanks!

    still looking for 23 DGA beseler head manual if anyone has one. Sent check to Craigcamera but i guess they're outta biz...
     
  2. vyshemirsky

    vyshemirsky Member

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    1) The only temperature critical stage of developing film is the developer. You can cool down your tank and a bottle of your developer using ice cubes in a water bath. It is not important to maintain low temperature through stop bath and fixer. It is even less important to maintain low temperature through wash. As soon as your temperature is below something like 140ºF you will be fine.

    2) 220 film is more rare, and is only useful in situations when you are machine gun shooting, like in a wedding. Why not change the roll of film? It is not much likely that you would miss a great picture while changing a roll in most circumstances.
     
  3. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

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  4. Jeff Kubach

    Jeff Kubach Member

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    Where I live the water temp. seems to be ok. Maybe your water heater is not doing so good. I like 120 better than 220. I don't like long rolls. Besides 220 is not available as much, I don't think you can find 220 in B&W anymore.

    Jeff
     
  5. Rick A

    Rick A Subscriber

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    My suggestion is to temper a couple of gallons of water. Keep two or more one gallon jugs of tap water in the fridge, and then bring it up to temp as needed. It is easy to mix some warmer water to obtain temp needed. Some folks think that only developer temp is critical, that's true to a point, but keeping all chems at or near(+-1 deg)is important to avoid reticulation of the emulsion. Some films are more sensitive to temp changes than others, so I err on the safe side and temper all my liquids the same.
     
  6. winger

    winger Subscriber

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    +1 I've seen enough posts on here asking about weird sgiggles that get ID'd as reticulation.
     
  7. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    If you are using modern, hardened, quality films from Kodak, Ilford or Fuji, you will absolutely not get reticulation, or other ill effects from temp swings of +/- a couple of degrees throughout the process. However the post above suggesting you can have any temperature after development, and that 140F is an acceptable temperature, is very wrong. That is an enormous swing from any temperature normally used in film processing. Furthermore at such a high temperature the wet emulsion would be extremely fragile at best, making defects essentially inevitable.

    Best practice is to keep the entire process including the wash as consistent in temperature as possible. This need not be 68F. It can be anywhere in the 70s as long as you adjust your times accordingly (and avoid development times shorter than say 5 minutes).

    For higher temperature conditions (example - tropical areas) there are special procedures, additives, and chemicals that can be used but I'm not familiar enough with any of them to make any recommendations.
     
  8. vpwphoto

    vpwphoto Member

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    I think the OP's original post has been "missed". I think he is saying that living in an apartment the ambiant cold temp of his water is 85 deg F.

    I suggest to him what I do, although I do not have the same situation. Get a 2 1/2 or 5 gal bucket. And temper a large quanity of water to say 72 degrees unless you keep your appartment at 68 which I doubt. Take the water for your developer and stop bath mix from this tempered water and have your fixer as close to this temp also. You can gradually introduce your film to the 85 degree wash.

    I know 68 is a B+W magic number but 72 works fine too... 75 might be too warm for a lot of developers and "uniformity".

    I vacationed in Aruba and noticed that no matter how long you ran the water it was warm.. the water mains were not buried on the island, black pipe in the equatorial sun gets hot, and I assume the "cold" lines in the apartment don't offer the opportunity for the water to get much below the OP"s posted temp.
     
  9. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    75 should not be a problem with standard materials unless it results in development times which are shorter than say 5 minutes. In fact 75 was (or still is) Kodak's recommended temp for TMax/Tmax RS.
     
  10. ChristopherCoy

    ChristopherCoy Member

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    I must be the rebel, or terribly ignorant - I don't pay close attention to temperature. I develop in D76, which I keep in a black container, in a dark closet. It stays around 75 in my house, and I figure if the solution is room temp, its close enough. Thus far, I haven't had any problems. But then again, I'm not doing any serious work yet either.
     
  11. paul ron

    paul ron Member

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    I don't understand, your cold water temp is 85°F? Where are you drawing water from, a pond?

    .
     
  12. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi ezwriter

    i lived in a sweat lodge of a factory building for years. it was a brick kiln, black membrane roof just above my head, and
    a vented skylight so all the building's hot air vented through my space ... it was fun :smile:

    vpwphoto makes a great point, to have a bunch of water just in buckets at ambient room temp. ...
    but if your ambient temp is kind of high ( summers mine was between 80-90º, and cold water was between 70-80ºF ) it will only do half the job :smile:

    ... if you store water to mix your chemistry in your fridge, that will help ...

    small hand-tanks don't take a lot of water to wash, especially with fixer remover ... you should easily be able to
    do a final wash with a a supply of 2.5 or 5 gallon buckets to do your final wash ( and it doesn't really matter if your wash water isn't 68º ) ...

    for developer, fix, stop, fix remover, you can mix fresh with water you have stored in the little fridge ...
    and if it is too cold you can mix it with your gallons in the buckets or with warmer water from your spigot

    if you find your film developing to be too short + uneven negatives ( below 5-6min? ) ... you might also thinkabout developers with glycin in them like to be used at around 72-73ºF ( lots of formulas out there, and the photographer's formulary sells + makes glycin )
    and also look around for formulas for "tropical developers" ... they also like hot temperatures ... the formulary sells the chemistry to
    make them ..

    making developer from component chemicals is pretty much the same as mixing a dry packet of your D76, except you mix
    4 or 5 things together, instead of 1 ...

    have fun ( and good luck) !
    john
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2011
  13. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

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    Ice
     
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  15. fmajor

    fmajor Member

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    For me, when my tap water is too warm, i use frozen plastic soda bottles to cool the develper. I place my developer container (brown glass) in a water-filled bucket and add the frozen soda bottle. I check the temp of the developer until it reaches the desired temp and remove it.
     
  16. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

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    I've settled on 75F as a working temp because that's the coldest I get out of my taps in the summer, and it's not hard to maintain with my Jobo in the winter. I don't like dealing with hauling ice up and down the stairs from the kitchen to the darkroom and then playing around with adding ice, checking the temp, adding hot water when I've over-cooled it, then adding more ice to bring it back down again. That said, 85 is pretty darned hot out of the tap. I'd third/fourth/fifth(?) the recommendation of mixing up a large volume of water that you pre-temper and then use it to dilute your chems and process your film. The plastic bottle full of ice is a good idea for managing a big bucket or a bathtub full of water.
     
  17. Jeff Searust

    Jeff Searust Member

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    A. In thousands of rolls of film I have never had any problem with wash water or stop water being a different temp than developer. Nor have I ever checked the temp on wash or stop other than to see that it was not hot.

    B. Toss a few ice cubes in a ziplock bag and use that to lower your developer temp.

    C. Use Diafine, or some other developer that is either temperature independent or that is a higher temp developer with a development curve that goes through your normal water temps.

    D. Just use bottled water.
     
  18. mikebarger

    mikebarger Subscriber

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    I too use 75 as that covers the summer range and is easy to maintain in the winter. My summer cold water runs a pretty steady 71 to 73 degrees.

    Mike
     
  19. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    IIRC, a few years ago Kodak adopted 75 F as their standard temperature for all their BW films. Some european films still require a lower processing temperature.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2011
  20. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Entirely possible. It has been quite a while since I've looked at their processing tables. If I was starting over 75 would actually be a little easier for me to work with in the mid-summer months. For now I'm too stuck in my old 68F ways to bother changing.
     
  21. vpwphoto

    vpwphoto Member

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    @ chistopher... if that works for you great. Temp increase of as little as 2 degree either way shows up in density!
    You may not need a water bath, unless you are developing film in a jungle or ice hotel, but it is very prudent to know your "starting point" at the very least.
    Cheers.
     
  22. vpwphoto

    vpwphoto Member

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    @ Paul Ron

    Come on... he lives in an apartment building the thermal inertia of the building could very well be what he says. Don't bust the OP's chops just to sound smart. I explained that in Aruba, even in a nice hotel the "cold" water was never below 90 degrees F!!

    He might be on the 10th floor of a building where the pipes run with the heating pipes or on the south wall who knows, but he came to us with a legitimate question, that I am sure is experienced by more than him alone.
     
  23. mwdake

    mwdake Member

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    Where I live the cold city water is about 26c in The summer and even in winter it comes out about 22-23c. I live in a house. When you live this far south that's what you get.

    I just mix up my developer at whatever temp the water is and adjust the time. I then stop with tap water and fix with fixer that is ambient room temp then finally wash with tap water.

    It works for me as I am too lazy to try cool things down and keep them there.
     
  24. Maris

    Maris Member

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    Phooey to 68 F!

    That's a historic relic derived from European tap water temperature being the basis for processing photographic materials. Here in Australia my tap water rarely runs that low and I reckon it doesn't matter. The important thing is that all processing solutions including the tap-water wash be the SAME temperature to avoid thermal shock to the wet emulsion.

    My approach is to develop at tap water temperature and adjust the developing time. For (replenished) Xtol my time/temperature experiments indicate for Tmax 100 at 55 Farenheit 23 minutes is right while at 95 Farenheit 2 minutes 40 seconds does the same thing. For temperatures in between my time adjustments fall in an orderly way. Other films behave in a parallel manner and a few initial trials tell you what you need to know.

    The anxiety about too short developing times leading to uneven results is overstated. With a properly pre-wet film in a Paterson (or similar) developing tank and a ready-to-hand jug of developer and the willingness to pour and agitate quickly a 3 minute developing time is no problem at all.

    There are supposed to be "soft emulsion" films out there but I've never had Efke, Adox, Foma, Ilford, Fuji, or Kodak misbehave at any temperture. I figure if the only things touching the emulsion are air plus liquid for a short time what's going to wreak damage. It's worth remembering that film washes quicker when it is hot. A 4 minute flowing wash at 90 F is as good as a 10 minute flowing wash at 68 F.

    For the record my hottest development was in the Australian outback using artesian bore water that came out of the ground at 113 F. The Tmax 100 negatives were fine with a hint of sepia from the sulphur that was in the water too. If you work quickly and carefully film can be processed safely at surprisingly elevated temperatures.
     
  25. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

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    The one big downside to processing at elevated temperatures and abbreviated times is the loss of precision in control. Working at high temperatures is fine and dandy if you are aiming for "printable" negatives. If your goal is to do N+1 or N-1 development and your base time is 3 minutes (180 seconds) then your N+/- factor is a mere 18 seconds, which is within the margin for error of pouring your solutions in and out of the developing tank.
     
  26. vpwphoto

    vpwphoto Member

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    Word...Flying Camera!
    And uniformity is in the eye of the beholder.
    I respect what people have to do to do what they have to or wish to!
    Thanks for the update about where 68° comes from Mr Maris.... I hope to visit your land someday.. 113° well tap!!! ouch.