how-to semi-stand (and not fall over)

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by sly, May 19, 2008.

  1. sly

    sly Subscriber

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    I've been reading some of the threads on semi-stand developing. There are alot of them, so I might have missed the most pertinent.
    I shot triX 120 yesterday at the muster for a parade. Sunny with a light haze, mid-day.
    I want to try semi-stand development, and just want to check I've got the right idea.

    My plan:
    Rodinal 1:100
    agitate for the first minute
    invert gently every 3-5 minutes
    fix after 30 minutes

    The thing I am most perplexed about is how long to develop. Would 60 minutes be better? Or does it not matter, as the developer will be exhausted anyway by 30?

    thanks in advance for any help
     
  2. edtbjon

    edtbjon Member

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    Well, possibly even a bit longer in between agitations. Say 8 minutes and then you give it a good (i.e. not so gentle) agitation. The time is not that crucial as you seem to have noticed, but an hour is to strech it.
    But there are many threads and opinions about this subject. Unless other chimes in, do a quick search in this forum and do also check the info at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat/pyrocat.html where there's quite a bit written about semi-stand and Pyrocat developers. (Same principle, just another developer...)

    //Björn
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2008
  3. sanking

    sanking Member

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    I personally call this type of agitation "minimal" rather than semi-stand.

    If you already know how long to develop with the 1:100 dilution and normal agitation, just increase development time by about 35% with minimal agitation.

    Sandy King
     
  4. c6h6o3

    c6h6o3 Member

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    Scott Killian does full stand development of 120 film in Rodinal and gets fabulous results. He lets them sit for an hour. I don't know what dilution he uses, however. You might want to try contacting him at scott@scottkillian.com
     
  5. George Collier

    George Collier Member

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    You don't mention the type of tank you are using. I have tried Tri-x 120 with Rodinal in many degrees of partial stand to no agitation after the first minute or two and have never had a roll without some kind of surge effects (some areas near the outside, top of the reel) that develop more than the internal areas. It's never consistent, and some frames are ok. I got similar results with Pyrocat HD and MC. I finally abandoned this and went back to HC-110, normal agitation. 4x5 and 35mm are fine, just 120.

    I use stainless steel reels, one an old Nikkor and one a newer British brand, I forget the name.
    I would be most interested in your results. I wish I could make this combination work.
     
  6. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Agitation at 5 minute intervals will make your density on a 120 film even.
    10 minute intervals, most of the time you'll get uneven density.

    I concur with Sandy, 5 minutes is safe, and gives you all the practical advantage of an hour's stand,
    with none of the risk.

    Rodinal - just sitting there for 100 years !
     
  7. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    I did a number of rolls of Agfa B&W films a couple of years ago in 120 and 35mm with 1+100 Rodinal and stand development. Full stand sometimes got some streaking or uneven development, but not every time. I was able to get even development with agitation at least once every 10 minutes. There seems to be a lot of individual variation with different agitation routines, films, developers, dilution rates, probably with the water used, etc. The best thing to do is test for your personal conditions and procedures.

    Lee

    You also won't go at all wrong listening to don (df cardwell) and Sandy.
     
  8. David Grenet

    David Grenet Member

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    I developed a roll of Delta 100 (120) yesterday - 1:100 gentle agitation for 10s every minute for 3 minutes, 1 gentle agitation at 30 min, total time 1 hour. Negs appear even and very printable, will know more when actually have time to print!
     
  9. bjorke

    bjorke Member

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    I've not seen huge differences after 45 minutes or so. You're COUNTING on exhaustion at the film surface
     
  10. sly

    sly Subscriber

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    Well, I developed the film. Taking into consideration the advice written here I:
    presoaked a couple of minutes
    Rodinal 1:100 - full (Nikkor) tank
    agitated for the first minute
    gentle inversion or 2 every 10 minutes
    60 minutes in the developer
    fixed, etc as usual
    the negatives look OK, no apparent surge marks. They are contrasty (high noon on a sunny day after all), but have detail in the shadows and the highlights and will be printable I think.
    Negatives currently drying, so I'll make some prints as soon as I can.
     
  11. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Good job

    1. Don't need to pre-soak in Rodinal.

    2. I was away from my storage drive earlier: For me, for a diffusion enlarger,
    TX in Rodinal is 30 to 35 minutes (with minimal agitation, 5 seconds per 5 minutes)

    3. An hour might be good for 1+200

    Rodinal is slow, but it is very powerful.
     
  12. Markok765

    Markok765 Member

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    I do 1:100 rodinal presoaked, agitated for first minute, and left for 60-80min.
     
  13. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Thanks Markos

    Once again, anything works in photography, find your own way !

    Same style, same values, same everything, yet times can be different a couple blocks away.

    EVERY time, regardless of the source, has to be a place to begin.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2008
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  15. Removed Account

    Removed Account Member

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    Judging from the widely differing responses it seems that voodoo and pagan chicken recipes are essential elements of this technique.
     
  16. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Just like the Zone System. Except for the chickens.

    We know the variables in conventional processing; time, temperature, and dilution.

    Most of us forget that agitation is a variable as well.

    And every variable is a control. A way to get JUSt what you want. OR screw up.

    Add the effects of a pre soak, and whatever variations there are in agitation (and possible temperature flucuations during the processing),
    minimal agitation is just a plain old technique like anything else.

    Consistency and control are all you need.

    That, and the funny, smelly, herbs.
     
  17. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    DON'T INHALE!

    I've had no luck finding pagan chickens in Thousand Oaks, so I've been using Rhode Island Reds instead.

    The film comes out looking good anyway!
     
  18. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    I agree with everything but gentle agitation. It seems to me that gentle agitation is a good way to get uneven flow patterns. You want to be sure of randomness of movement of the liquid while its moving. My opinion, of course.
     
  19. Mark Antony

    Mark Antony Member

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    I recently developed some APX 100 in Rodinal 1:200 for 60 mins and the negs look lovely, at lower dilutions like 1:100 I think an hour sounds a little too much.
    My agitation was slow for first min, and one slow rolling agitation after 30min.

    I guess try out a few different times, see what works best for you.
    Mark
     
  20. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Gadget: "Gentle agitation... " Yes, but the reel clunking around in a tanks seems to manage the job pretty well. It doesn't seem to matter for me, invert & twist or rolling back and forth.

    AS for my catalog of variables, I forgot the primary one: the photographer.

    With minimal agitation, Rodinal's tendency is to build opacity at a fairly uniform rate, but not increase contrast. (this statement effectively describes the process, without wading into my lab books filled with hundred of curves and pictures of step wedges !). I think the reason for this is Rodinal's sensivity to bromide: less a restrainer, more an emergency brake.

    So, the difference between one hour and 30 minutes ? Light meter, metering technique, enlarger, paper, film developer, and, most wonderfully, taste.
     
  21. sly

    sly Subscriber

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    I have posted 2 prints from yesterday's parade muster in the gallery. I don't see surge marks. I did notice that density is increased all along one edge of the negatives. This is the side that was at the top of the tank during development. Would that be a function of time? agitation? dilution of the developer? It is just at the very edge of the negative and easily cropped.
    I will continue to experiment with this. I thought it was terrific that I could develop film AND do a load of laundry and make a batch of muffins.
     
  22. cotdt

    cotdt Member

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    couldn't we just use the miniminal possible amount of rodinal and rely on exhaustion?
     
  23. bjorke

    bjorke Member

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    Uh-oh.... was the tank really, reallly still? Or was if being vibrated by the dryer?
     
  24. sly

    sly Subscriber

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    Nah, it was no where near the dryer.... it was in the kitchen watching me measure baking powder for the muffins.
     
  25. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    We could, but development would be uneven, a graduation from top to bottom.

    There are two things we might accomplish with minimal agitation, one is to induce actuance effects.

    The other is to raise the shadows relative to the highlights, the curve pivoting at the midtone, as it were, on a fulcrum.

    Essentially we 'push' the shadows while 'pulling the highlights'; the shadows continue to develop while the highlights develop until they stop.

    Depending on the film, you would end up with flat highlights, too flat. So, you balance the agitation (highlight control) with the time (shadow control) and place the midtone by exposure. Well, that's how I use it !
     
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  26. cotdt

    cotdt Member

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    does accutance effect scale with format?