I.R in 4x5

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by BobNewYork, Jan 27, 2008.

  1. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

    Messages:
    1,067
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Been thinking about trying some IR for a few years now and just never got around to it. I've admired those images that it works for - and detested those where the IR effect is just plain gimmicky.

    I use a Zone VI field camera and was thinking of getting me a box of EFKE and a Lee 87C filter. Anyone have any advice or know of any pitfalls I should be aware of before I embark on the quest?
     
  2. accozzaglia

    accozzaglia Member

    Messages:
    559
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Location:
    Sweet home T
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi. There appears to be an eBay auction for 2 cared-for boxes of Kodak HIE IR 4x5 on the block slated to end later today. It doesn't answer your question, but if you're shooting 4x5, the price still seems fairly affordable for what it is. Given that I've only shot IR in 35mm so far (and soon, I'll try out the Efke 820 in 120), the only advice I can give is IR-proof as best as possible wherever you handle your film. Fogging sucks.

    Also, in the 35mm/roll film sense, it is recommended to bracket every shot. Doing this with sheets seems to be a bit costly, even painful (to the wallet). I'm not sure what advice to offer.

    I'd say, "Life is short. Give it a shot." :smile:
     
  3. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

    Messages:
    1,067
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks for the response. Yes, I saw the e-bay offer. Problem with IR is if it's not carefully stored it's ruined - and you've got to try a few sheets just to find out. NO returning that!!

    Hear you - Life is Short! Got nothing to lose but my self respect and at my age that's LONG GONE!!!
     
  4. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    7,077
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Location:
    Basin and Range Province
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Hi guys,

    With 4x5, if you have the exposure pretty down, it is easier to change development. Not quit the same as bracketing, of course, but there is still a pretty good ability to add or reduce density and contrast. What I do is shoot both sides of a holder on the same shot, so each holder has two versions of the same shot. When I process, I run one side of each holder. After evaluation, I can then change the development for the other sheet if need be. The ability to process sheets individually this way has eliminated almost any need for bracketing the way I do with roll film. (unless I'm shooting transparencies)

    I'll be giving the Efke IR film a whirl pretty soon, so please tell how you like it.
     
  5. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

    Messages:
    1,067
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks - will do. BTW are the regular 4x5 holders OK for IR? I know in 35 many of the plastic-bodied cameras just fog the film.

    Bob
     
  6. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    7,077
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Location:
    Basin and Range Province
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
  7. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

    Messages:
    1,067
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks a lot.
     
  8. keithwms

    keithwms Member

    Messages:
    6,070
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Location:
    Charlottesvi
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I use the Rollei IR in 4x5 with a #87- very satisfied. Just bear in mind that you're looking at longish exposures, a couple seconds on a typical LF lens at f/8 in decent light. So I started using apo process lenses because (a) there's negligible refocus; and (b) who needs a shutter when the capture is a couple seconds; and, (c) because of (a) you can shoot wide open with impunity.

    With a good apo lens you can start to play with tilts and swings in the same way you might in the visible. More creative flexibility.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2008
  9. PhotoJim

    PhotoJim Member

    Messages:
    2,222
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Regina, SK,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    They don't fog the film because they're plastic bodies. They fog the film because they have infrared-based film transport systems.

    Plastic-bodied cameras like the Nikon F601/N6006 work just fine because they use a mechanical film transport system.
     
  10. DarkroomExperimente

    DarkroomExperimente Member

    Messages:
    706
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Location:
    Washington D
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    those evil windows that show what type of film you're using don't help either
     
  11. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,281
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I'm more than a little sceptical as to the improvement with APO process lenses vs. "ordinary" lenses.

    First of all the wavelengths that available (not HIE) IR films are sensitive to are so close to visible red light that even a non-achromat would have negligible focus shift.

    Second, "APO" process lenses are corrected for blue, green and red light when used at 1:1. That is no guarantee that they will be reasonably well corrected for IR, or at other ratios.

    I'll try when the sunlight returns - with 150mm APO-Lanthar, Germinar-W, Symmar, Tessar, and a (non-achromat) 14cm Ernemann Doppel-Objektiv which arrived yesterday. I doubt there will be visible differences in sharpness, except with the Ernemann.
     
  12. keithwms

    keithwms Member

    Messages:
    6,070
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Location:
    Charlottesvi
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ole, a couple of quick points.

    First of all, I tried near focus and I tried far focus with the Rollei IR film. Notice I did not say that no refocus is necessary, what I said is that I find it to be negligible. It was noticeably less of an issue than with other lenses that I have used... various schneiders and nikkors.

    Second, the film I mentioned, Rollei IR, is a near-IR film... really what you might call edge red or extended red. I did not claim that there will be no refocus with a deeper IR film such as HIE or digital IR. But as you know, the basic issue here is n as a function of lambda, and in an APO lens, you don't have n(lambda)=constant across the visible range and then suddenly, drastically, it goes to crap as soon as you get to 800nm. Again one has to bear in mind what lambda range one is talking about. With HIE and digital you are seeing out to about a micron or more. Not so with Rollei IR and SFX and all that.

    I use apo process lenses for near UV and near IR stuff and have had good success, even working wide open, even using swings and tilts. People should simply try for themselves.

    Couple examples where I was shooting a 360mm apo-nikkor wide open with liberal swings to test...

    IR
    http://keithwilliamsphoto.net/Photography with Invisible Light/Jacob Apo Infrared.html

    UV
    http://keithwilliamsphoto.net/Photography with Invisible Light/Jacob in Ultraviolet.html

    In both cases the optimal focus was predicted by my ground glass to be dead center and then I made a line of good focus across each frame with a swing...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2008
  13. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,047
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2004
    Location:
    Lehi, Utah
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    Some plastic holders are not IR opaque. They can allow some IR light to come in from the plastic holding them together. I have not had fogging from the slides, but the edges have been horribly fogged in the past. I have never had issues with wood holders.

    One of the challenges with IR film is getting enough shadow detail. As with normal film, one can easily get enough exposure for the highlights, but if there is not enough exposure for the shadows, no amount of development can bring it back.

    I have had a wide range of ISO's from IR films. As fast as 200 ASA from Kodak's film to as slow as 1/2 ASA with the Maco film. It takes some testing.

    Best of luck
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

    Messages:
    1,067
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Thanks a lot. Guess I'd better get two boxes - one for testing and one for shooting!
     
  16. Peter De Smidt

    Peter De Smidt Member

    Messages:
    1,064
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Fond du Lac,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ekfe IR film is very slow. If I remember rightly, I expose it at EI 6 with a Hoya RM72 filter.
     
  17. David William White

    David William White Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Location:
    Hamilton, Ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    IR in 4x5

    I've just picked up a box of Efke 4x5 after running out of HIE 35mm.

    I can report there is NO problem in handling the holders outdoors. No problem with my bellows either -- although holders and bellows are only a couple of years old. If you are worried, waste a sheet by leaving the holder outside for half an hour -- I think you'll probably be okay. Daylight is UV heavy.

    I'm using a Lee 87 filter, but, my god, the ISO seems to be about 1 for me. I've blown about 10 sheets so far and still haven't anything with enough density to print properly. I'm into reciprocity failure adjustment on every exposure.

    I'm switching to deep red filter to nail that first and then I'll get back to the Lee filter.

    D.
     
  18. walter23

    walter23 Member

    Messages:
    1,189
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    Location:
    Victoria BC
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I wish I could get more 4x5 HIE. I still haven't gotten comfortable with the efke stuff (though I've only shot a few sheets so far). It sure does need a pretty low sensitivity rating to get the shadow detail up, which of course means clouds & trees and stuff move more than you might want. With HIE, even stopped down and with a deep red on, you can get < 1 second exposures pretty easily.
     
  19. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    7,077
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Location:
    Basin and Range Province
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format

    It depends on the holders, slides and bellows. For sure the 5 bump fidelity holders are ok. Best to test rather than ruin allot of film. Concerning bellows for example, I have been told that the sheepskin on my Tachihara isn't IR safe. I will check it, of course to be sure.

    Curious how the UV in daylight relates, regarding IR?
     
  20. Black Dog

    Black Dog Member

    Messages:
    3,238
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Location:
    Eight miles high
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Fidelity holders were fine for me also.
     
  21. Robert Hall

    Robert Hall Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,047
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2004
    Location:
    Lehi, Utah
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    He probably mis-spoke there, Jason.

    It's a certainty that some holders are not as safe as others. To that end I would always recommend a test of the holders you plan on using. Better safe than sorry. :smile:
     
  22. msage

    msage Subscriber

    Messages:
    298
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Location:
    Washington State
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Hi Jason
    The bellows of my Linhof VI is safe for Efke 820, but not safe for HIE. I guess the extended sensitivity of the HIE is the difference. My older Wista is safe for both films.
    Michael
     
  23. David William White

    David William White Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Location:
    Hamilton, Ca
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    UV sensitivity in IR film

    Looking at the Efke/Maco poop sheet, IR film has same sensitivity curve as ordinary film, but with extended IR response. Daylight is doesn't contain a lot of IR (3 or 4 stops below visible and UV), so my guess is that IR
    films aren't any more prone to fogging in film holders than normal film, with the exception of metal darkslides exposed to heat.

    Does that make sense?
     
  24. BobNewYork

    BobNewYork Member

    Messages:
    1,067
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Location:
    Long Island,
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I get you David. I guess the IR effect arises principally out of those parts of the scene that emit IR - rather than the IR content of the illuminating light. And I will be sure to take my darkslides out of the oven in plenty of time before loading the holders!!!:tongue::tongue:

    Thanks David
     
  25. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    9,552
    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Actually, the IR effect has nothing to do with emitted light, but rather reflected light. To see how this works, try taking a photograph of the same subject under tungsten illumination and fluorescent illumination, using an 87 IR filter, where both light sources provide an identical light meter reading at the subject location. Tungsten lights are rich in infrared; fluorescent is lacking in IR. Your subject will look quite different under the two light sources; the fluorescent-lit shot will appear significantly underexposed, if it records an image at all.

    This is why leaves of deciduous trees turn white, but the needles of conifers remain dark. Deciduous leaves are rich in chlorophyll which is a great reflector of IR. Pine needles have much less chlorophyll in them, so they do not show nearly as much IR effect.
     
  26. herb

    herb Subscriber

    Messages:
    376
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Ir film

    I guess grafmatics are pretty safe, huh? Very interesting the point about pine needles and deciduous leaves.

    I find Efke IR in sheet at asa numero uno with an IR filter have not done any development tests, which of course is the only way to be certain. That is next on the schedule.