Ilford/Kodak filters with Polywarmtone (contrastier?)

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Andre R. de Avillez, Nov 21, 2004.

  1. Andre R. de Avillez

    Andre R. de Avillez Member

    Messages:
    965
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hello again, folks.

    I'm curious if anyone know which contrast filters have more contrast at grades 4-5 with Forté/JandC Polywarmtone, Ilford filters or Kodak filters.

    I ask because I have a limited amount of contrat control with my color head (which only goes to 170 magenta), and though about getting a set of contrast filters on eb@y (or Freestyle)... To be honest grades 4 to 5 are all I need, since I have a lot of thin negs which could use the extra boost...

    Thanks in advance,

    André
     
  2. Andre R. de Avillez

    Andre R. de Avillez Member

    Messages:
    965
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    a quick look at the ilford café forums showed the possiblity of blue separation filters. Anyone have any experience?
     
  3. ann

    ann Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,920
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Shooter:
    35mm
    You might try to find some older version as the grade 4 and 5 are seriously more magenta than the newer version. However, the newer papers may not response the same.

    You could and maybe still can get sheets of specific grades of filters instead of a whole set. Ilford sells a 12 inch square version of each grade
     
  4. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    A blue #48b and a green #58 are both cutting filters and are what is recommended for split filter printing. They correspond well to the colors of the tubes on my Aristo VCL 4500 cold lite head. Roscoe sells an equivalent filter material I think.

    lee\c
     
  5. glbeas

    glbeas Member

    Messages:
    3,307
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Location:
    Roswell, Ga.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have a set of Ilford filters that were supposed to be 6x6 but when I got them I found some fool had cut 3x3 chunks out of several of them. If you can use the smaller size filters pm me your mailing address and I'll send the set to you.
     
  6. Andre R. de Avillez

    Andre R. de Avillez Member

    Messages:
    965
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thank you Ann, Lee, and Gary.

    Ann, Freestyle has the 12 inch filters, and for about the same price they sell an under the lens set. For 1/3 of that they sell 3x3 (I think) filters... As for older filters, I haven't been able to find any older grade 5 filters on ebay, all (obviously) older sets stopped at grade 4.

    Lee, thank you for the filter numbers. For some reason I though that the blue was #47, not 48. Thanks for setting that straight.

    Gary,

    Thank you very much, i've pm`ed you.

    André
     
  7. ann

    ann Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,920
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Shooter:
    35mm
    when i said older i didn't mean there was a higher contrast than 5, but with some of the older sets grade 4 and 5 had a much high magenta content than anything we are seeing today, which may effect the level of contrast that can be gained.

    We have several sets of the under lens type but between the holder and the manner in which the holder is attached creates inssue with changing fstops.

    Years ago, the enlargers had a gadget that would swing out from under the lens and was attached to move. This basically was a red filter that would allow one to view the image without exposing the paper. Or , beseler had a slot that would slide above the lens and had the same type of square filter that comes with the under lens set.
    BOth types can be used with the under lens version.

    Of course, there is always the "battle" about the wisdom of under or above filters. Am not interested in starting a flame war, just stating a fact , that there is a debate.

    I suggest the single 12 by 12 since you indicated you only need one or two grades.

    We buy the above and replace filters on a continuing bases, cutting them down to fit the particular enlarger. Works out well for replacement of individual grades.
     
  8. Andre R. de Avillez

    Andre R. de Avillez Member

    Messages:
    965
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ok, I see what you mean.

    I have used beseler 45 enlargers that have the swing arm for under the lens filters, and I'll probably make something like that for my enlarger. I'm aware of the potential drawbacks of under the lens filters, and that is one of the reasons I initially bought a color head (no dust/scratch problems to influence sharpness).

    Anyway, I might be able to make an above the lens filter slot by shimming it above the negative carrier, under the light diffuser. Hmm, that just might work... I'll see once gary's filters get here. And as far as the older filters go, I might be able to pick a set up really cheaply on eb@y, but hopefully I won't need to.

    Thanks again,

    André
     
  9. tomishakishi2

    tomishakishi2 Member

    Messages:
    40
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I cannot help really, but to suggest using a contrasty developer (Tetenal Eukobrom or similar), less exposure and more development. I once read about someone using a Grade 5 preflash for the whole print, but have not tried this. I can see the logic (the darker tones should pop up faster as the harder emulsion in the VC emulsion has been pushed over its threshold) but I am sceptical.

    Les McClean is likely to have some advice on this one, if not a direct answer to your question. Personally, I doubt that the kodak filters will produce more contrast. If they do, it may well not be enought to solve your problems in any case.

    Forte Polywarmtone is reputed not to go beyond a true grade 4 to 41/2 anyway. Is a contrastier paper an option? Agfa MCC is contrastier and Ilford Warmtone the most contrasty ( easily a grade more than Forte PWT),

    Then plus selenium...a post bleach.....you'll get there (perhaps no longer sane tho)

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2004
  10. ann

    ann Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,920
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Altho i am not Les, underexposing and over developing is an old standard technique for those of us who learned to print on graded fiber papers, you can get about 1/2 step increase, depending on the paper . then you can start "jucing the developer with bromides.

    I was surprised when this technique worked with RC papers, but we gave it a try one day just as a last resort and the results certainly worked.
     
  11. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Lee, thank you for the filter numbers. For some reason I though that the blue was #47, not 48. Thanks for setting that straight.

    No, after looking at this for awhile I think I am wrong and you are right. #47b sounds correct. it was very late last night when I wrote that. Sorry and thank you for setting me straight.

    lee\c
     
  12. Andre R. de Avillez

    Andre R. de Avillez Member

    Messages:
    965
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Tom,

    You are right, less exposure and more development will give me more contrast, Les has told me so before. I do know, or at least strongly suspect, that my color head will not give the paper's full contrast, so poping a grade 5 filter should help me some. This is not a life or death situation, as most of my negatives get good results from my set up as it is, but I'm sure it could be a little better.

    Lee, so it is #47/#47b...

    Has anyone ever compared a blue separation filter to a grade 5 filter? This is really just curiosity at this point.
     
  13. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Andre,
    I have always heard that the filter should be a #47b. I don't think there is much difference but there must be some or why would they make a #47b?

    lee\c
     
  14. Andre R. de Avillez

    Andre R. de Avillez Member

    Messages:
    965
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have looked very quickly at it and found this out:

    #47b has a filter factor of 8
    #47 has a filter factor of 6 (I think)

    so the "b" is a darker (perhaps purer) blue...
     
  15. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

    Messages:
    6,242
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    It is not only the degree of "blueness" of the filter but more importantly the spectral bandpass of these filters. If you evaluate this on the basis of the spectral characteristics of the high contrast portion of the paper emulsion that you are using and match the filter spectral response to the paper's spectral sensitivity then you will more nearly activate the paper in the manner that you wish.