Ilford Pan F+ and Rodinal combination

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by thenikonknight, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. thenikonknight

    thenikonknight Member

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    I've shot some Ilford Pan F+ at ei 25. I have Rodinal developer. I shot the film outdoors on a partly cloudy day - some of the shots were under sunny conditions and some were cloudy. I am using a Nikon 35mm.

    Does anyone have suggestions that have worked for them concerning developer ratio/development time/agitation times/fixing times?

    I know this film+developer combo has been brought up before. I have done some searching around this forum and other forums online with limited success. However, I usually end up with results of Pan F+ developed in a different developer or a different film all together and wind up spending hours of time I don't have. That's why I am asking here for this specific combination rated at shot at ei 25.

    Also, if any could point me to examples of Ilford Pan F+ shot at ei 25 developed in Rodinal (preferably with dev. times) - it would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you for all of your input and assistance.
     
  2. JCJackson

    JCJackson Member

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    When in doubt, I use the Massive DEvelopment Chart: http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php. It indicates a dilution of 1+100 and a time of 15 minutes, with standard agitation. This could be difficult if you have only a single roll in a small (250 ml) tank, since it is recommended that the tank contain a minimum of 5 ml of Rodinal per roll to assure complete development. The easy way around this would be to use 5 ml in a 500 ml tank, and add a second empty reel to keep things from sloshing around too much during agitation.

    Hope this helps!
     
  3. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Pan F+ is a rather problematic film in that it develops contrast very quickly. You are right in wanting to reduce the EI. Whenever I use this film I expose at EI of 32 and develop in D-23 1+1. You are using a low contrast developer with a high contrast film to tame it. This film/developer combo is excellant. D-23 is very easy to make and very economical since it contains only 2 ingredients. If you don't have a scale there are teaspoon versions on the web.
     
  4. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I'm not a Rodinal user but I suspect most people would use Pan F+ with Rodinal diluted in the 1+100 range to help tame contrast. The decision to downrate it really depends on how much shadow detail you want and how much contrast you develop to. Rating it at 25 sounds about right but that would be for my taste. Others might disagree.

    Personally I'd tend to lean more in Gerald's direction but it really depends on what kind of tonality you prefer, how much grain etc. I go for the best balance of fine grain/sharpness I can get, and for me that's not Rodinal, mostly because I have never found Pan F+ to be as fine grained as I expect for its speed. So rather than use Rodinal I prefer dilute solvent developers such as XTOL 1+3, ID11 1+3 etc. At these dilutions general purpose solvent developers are essentially as sharp as Rodinal, but finer grained. Tonality is a little different than Rodinal but this can be adjusted/manipulated. I'd use D23 in the same way (1+3). At stock strength or 1+1 I have not personally found D23 to be a low contrast developer, and it would be less sharp than Rodinal at those dilutions too.
     
  5. ROL

    ROL Member

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    Start with digitaltruth as the rest of us do. 1+100 @ 15 minutes sounds about right for somewhat limited contrast.

    I develop Rodinal normally with 1+50 @ 9 minutes with solid results, though my preference for Pan F+ is now PMK Pyro (1:2:100) or (1:1.5:100) @ 9 minutes (N).
     
  6. arealitystudios

    arealitystudios Member

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    I shoot with 120 Pan F fairly often developed in Rodinal and I follow the times recommend on the Massive Development Chart.

    I do however modify their recommendations a tad in that I develop slightly colder than 68 degrees (usually 66), increase my time a little bit, and I agitate very gently to tame the contract, particularly when I know my lighting was contrasty. When shooting on an overcast day I just develop as normal.
     
  7. thenikonknight

    thenikonknight Member

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    Thanks for the input. I almost forgot about the massive dev chart.

    A couple of other questions came to mind. Would fixing for 5mins be acceptable here? I had experienced problems in the past with not fixing long enough. Also, is a stop bath recommended?

    I went to the Ilford site and saw for agitation they state, "invert the tank four times during the first 10 seconds, then invert the tank four
    times again during the first 10 seconds for each further minute."

    Does that agitation seem a bit much for this film?

    Also, can anyone point me to some sample images of Pan F+ @ ei 25 using Rodinal? I'd like to have something to compare.
    Thanks again!
     
  8. Colin Corneau

    Colin Corneau Subscriber

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    I shoot Pan-F+ a lot, in Rodinal 1:50. Contrast was never a problem for me, but I like my images to have contrast.

    An individual's particular development regiment changes a lot from person to person, but 14 minutes works well for me, at 20 degrees Celsius. I don't go crazy on agitation, just the standard recommended amount.
     
  9. vpwphoto

    vpwphoto Member

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    I used a two bath developer that the Zone Vi studios used to sell. My stuff was wonderful...
    Don't use Pan F too much as of late.
     
  10. baachitraka

    baachitraka Subscriber

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    Rodinal 1+50 for 15 mins, agitation/inversion @ every 5th minute.

    300ml water + 6ml Rodinal concentration.

    Start = 3 inversion
    5th Minute = 3 inversion
    10th Minute = 3 inversion
    15th Minute - pour out.

    Stop + Fix + Wash.
     
  11. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Re fixing, follow Ilford's recommendations. Depends on the fixer. For most rapid fixers 4-5 minutes is plenty for Pan F. With a regular fix the time would be about double that of the rapid fix.

    Re stop bath, some people don't like using acid stop baths with high pH developers like Rodinal. I doubt you'd have a problem, but if you want to try a water stop instead, it works just as well if you do it properly (you need several water changes, with agitation - the water should be the same temperature as the developer and the other chemicals). A water stop is slightly slower than an acid stop bath so it might necessitate reducing the development time slightly, but not by much.

    Re agitation, in general Ilford's recommended agitation scheme is a good starting point - ie agitating gently each minute. I prefer a longer initial agitation period though. Instead of only agitating for 10 seconds initially, I prefer 1 minute (some people do 30 seconds). This would normally necessitate shortening the total developing time a little bit, but that is fine. A longer initial agitation period can help prevent uneven development, particularly if one is pouring the developer into the tank after the film is in there.

    You'll have to experiment and judge for yourself. Contrast can be reduced if you leave more time in between agitation cycles, for example, but it depends on the film, the developer, the dilution etc. I'd suggest starting with one minute intervals as Ilford suggests.


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2012
  12. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    Alternately, you could use Agfa's starting recommendations, attached.

    Lee
     

    Attached Files:

  13. polyglot

    polyglot Member

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    I use Pan-F at EI25, Rodinal 1+50, develop for 9:00 at 20C. Note that's with agitation for first minute then 10s per minute, not the semi-stand (once per 3-5 minutes) approaches suggested above. I don't like the dull highlight look of semi-stand.

    Some examples.
     
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  15. Dave in Kansas

    Dave in Kansas Member

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    I sometimes think that if I could only have one film and one developer it would be Pan F and Rodinal. It's beautiful, and I haven't found it hard to tame the contrast on most scenes.

    I shoot it at EI 25, and develop in Rodinal 1:100 at 68F/20C for 15 minutes for normal contrast. I agitate constantly the first 30 seconds or so, then reduce it down to about once every 3 minutes if the scenes are normal.

    Dave
     
  16. baachitraka

    baachitraka Subscriber

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  17. john_s

    john_s Subscriber

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    Agfa's recommendations are generally for contrast of 0.65 which is a bit high. The pdf uploaded by Lee is unusual in that for 1+100 it gives the resulting contrast at 15min and at 20min, and for PanF+ it's the same for 15min and 20min. Also it's interesting that it recommends 250mL of solution at 1+100 which is only 2.5mL of Rodinal. Agfa also stated elsewhere that 5mL was needed. I wonder if they did the 1+100 test with 250mL and that small quantity actually was exhausted at around 15min, which would mean perhaps that if you used 500mL then you'd end up with more contrast.
     
  18. Roger Cole

    Roger Cole Member

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    I have found Pan F in Diafine at EI 64 a wonderful combination.
     
  19. thenikonknight

    thenikonknight Member

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    Here are the results from my 1st attempt using this combination.
    I used a Patterson 2 reel tank (two rolls were processed together). I used the following ratio:

    Rodinal 1+100 for 15 mins, agitation/inversion @ every 5th minute.

    1000ml water + 10ml Rodinal concentration.

    Start = 3 inversion
    5th Minute = 3 inversion
    10th Minute = 3 inversion
    15th Minute - pour out.

    Stop bath 20 seconds
    One quick water wash
    Fixer 5 mins
    5 Minute Wash - agitation constant for 1 minute cycles renewing water after every minute (Photo Flo added to last minute wash cycle).

    A couple of things to note here. I don't have much experience processing B&W (as you could probably guess from the included image). I mixed up 1000mL water and 10mL Rodinal. Of course I only poured approx 550mL into the tank - I am not sure how much developer solution I should be pouring in the tank (should I change my ratio?). Also, do you start the timer while pouring the developer solution into the tank or not? I am not sure if this will make a difference.

    The image is salvageable with some image editing. However, it would be better to work with a cleaner negative.

    Any pointers/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Iford plus Rodinal.JPG
     
  20. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I don't know where you came up with this agitation scheme but it is no good, especially with a scene of normal or low contrast. The result is a muddy, uneven, flat negative with poor shadow contrast. Go back to what I posted and refer to Ilford's instructions. Particularly if you're not experienced, start with a standard procedure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2012
  21. thenikonknight

    thenikonknight Member

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    I used the agitation advice from an earlier post in this thread.
    Next time I'll just use the Massive Dev chart since Ilford doesn't have instructions for ei25.
     
  22. baachitraka

    baachitraka Subscriber

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    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum216/69617-shaping-tone-curve-rodinal-negative.html

    Above agitation scheme is indeed very good to get the shadow detail.

    Please note: The development time and agitation was given only for the dilution 1+50(my personal case, 300ml + 6ml) only.
     
  23. thefizz

    thefizz Subscriber

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    EI40, Rodinal 1:50, 15 minutes, lovely:smile:
     
  24. thenikonknight

    thenikonknight Member

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    Some other questions I had:

    - Should I start the timer while I am pouring in the developer solution - or wait until I have all of the solution in the tank?
    - I am using Clayton oderless fixer - does that make a difference?
    - How much total developer solution should I be pouring into the Patterson (2 reel) tank for processing - 600mL?

    ~ Thank you
     
  25. Zvonimir Ervacic

    Zvonimir Ervacic Member

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    Digital Truth site is a good starting point but I prefer to use Ed Buffaloe recommended developing times and developing procedure (explained on pages) for PMK and Rodinal developers. He use diffuse head enlarger, I use condenser head enlarger so I reduce developing time by 10%. If the shooting situation were not difficult regarding contrast I usually get negatives that are printable on Fotokemika Emaks paper, Normal gradation. If not Soft or Hard graded paper help. :smile: At least excellent starting point that in my experience rarely need small tuning for printing on Normal graded paper.
    Here is recommended time for Rodinal:
    http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Developers/Times_Rodinal/times_rodinal.html
     
  26. baachitraka

    baachitraka Subscriber

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    Start the timer and pour the developer.

    For fixer, follow the recommendation from the the manufacturer.

    If you are developing two rolls then 600ml of water + 12ml of developer, otherwise 300ml + 6ml for a roll. Before that make sure that your 'reels' are submerged completely with given amount of water.