Ilford Panchromatic Bromide roll paper

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by 2F/2F, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    I have two sealed boxes of this paper, 11 inches by 100 feet. Says "Open in Dark Room Only" and "Ilford Panchromatic Bromide, Waterproof Base" No date, but it is stamped with dots; the code: 252BE. Feb. 1952, perhaps?

    I am wondering what exactly this is and what it is good for. I have a suspicion that it was intended for carbro prints, as I got it from the supply of a photographer who did do carbro prints, among other things...and carbro prints do necessitate the use of roll paper to help with registration. In this case, the surface of the paper would be different than standard printing paper.

    Any thoughts on what it is and what it's good for? If it is in any way desirable unopened, I don't want to bust it out of the box until I've decided for sure not to sell it.
     
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  2. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I'm not sure of this particular product, but it is probably similar to the old Kodak Panalure panchromatic paper that was used to make prints from color negatives. Since it is waterproof, it may be designed for aerial photo printing (or maybe just for quick processing). Many such products have excellent dimensional stability. Your source would have used it to make separation positives for color carbro prints. Since it is panchromatic, handle it only in total darkness.
     
  3. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Thanks.

    I don't know if the plastics or the proper pigment for carbro printing can even be obtained any more. Probably not...although if some basic specs and/or samples were available, they shouldn't be too hard to reproduce. The roller assembly shouldn't be that hard to make or come by.

    Might be great for in-camera use! I have a 12x20 pinhole that is rather expensive to keep loaded with Efke film. I don't use APHS litho because I want a panchromatic film.

    I'm going to open one and see what's up with it.

    Please continue to add info, people.

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  4. Sparky

    Sparky Member

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    'waterproof base' = 'resin-coated' or equivalent. It's made for rapid processing in machines particularly. And yeah- it being panchromatic would indicate that it's for prints from colour negs. I can think of no other reason for a paper being panchromatic...
     
  5. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Just tested some pieces for max. black and max. white. There is no way it could have been fogged by light, as it was wrapped *very* securely in a double-layered black material...twice! Took me a little while to get it unwrapped in the dark. Of course, there is some fog from radiation and heat. (Yes, I developed in absolute darkness.) However, since I see myself using this in camera to make a neg, that fog can be printed through when making the paper pos via contact.

    I am not sure if there were any color negs when this stuff was sold, Sparky, or any processing machines...but the date is still up in the air. The packaging looks older than you or I, though. (BTW, I am in L.A. too. Whereabouts are you?)

    The emulsion is very luminescent, almost "pearly" when wet, and has a unique texture, as if there is no topcoat over the light-sensitive emulsion...which I have been told that carbro color separation paper did not have. It dries matte, though.

    It seems plastic based, but not resin coated on the emulsion itself. Makes sense for a paper that needs to maintain identical size print to print, and that only leads a short service life (to pull pigment from the plastics). Looks and feels like RC from behind, but like matte fiber from the front.

    I think this will work great for use in camera. I just have to be extra careful with the emulsion.
     
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  6. Sparky

    Sparky Member

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    Hey 2F - I'm in Hollywood... just how old is this then...? I'm not sure what panalure's reign was exactly - but I would GUESS that colour neg materials have been around since the late 40s at least...(??)
     
  7. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    Sounds really nice for pinholing.
     
  8. PHOTOTONE

    PHOTOTONE Member

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    I was working in a portrait studio as a lab technician in the late 1960's, and I made a 5x7 b/w Panalure "proof" of every medium-format C-22 Color Negative the studio shot. This was single-weight glossy fibre paper...However the paper manufacturers were providing RC type papers to the military at that time in history, and it was around this time that the first RC "resin-coated" consumer papers were being introduced. So panchromatic "Panalure" type products were common by the late 1960's at least.
     
  9. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    [​IMG]

    Here is a digital pic of the paper box. At least it was taken with 40-year-old Nikon glass.

    (Please let me know about the brightness. I have been noticing that pix are appearing about a stop darker on my desktop PC than they are on my laptop Apple.)

    After doing a quick Internet search, I found that color negs were first made in the 40s, so yes, you are right; it is probably not that old, Sparky. I thought that all color films were pos. films until the late 50s, but I was wrong!

    I am in Highland Park, which is the very NE corner of L.A. City, bordering Pasadena.

    The guy has a small pile of these boxes; perhaps 20 more, and also a few boxes of another size. He gave me these two as a free sample, because there is some slight water damage. The water did not reach the paper at all, though. He said I could try this and come back and pay for the others if I wanted them. He did come down a lot on other items I purchased, so I imagine I could get the stuff for a good price as a lot.
     
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  10. Sparky

    Sparky Member

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    Funny - did you get them from a guy named Thaddeus (thad)? Armenian guy? Those look kind of 1965-68-ish to me... judging solely from the typography, etc... your pc screen appears darker because it has a gamma of at least 1.8-2.2 whereas the mac tends to be quite a lot lower. Microsoft resorts to this because it makes images look 'stronger' - but you lose lots of shadow. So stuff gets darker.
     
  11. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Nope, from a guy named Marc. They belonged to photographer Richard C. Miller, and Mark got all his photo equipment when he retired. He is still alive at nearly 100 years old! Willy Ronis too. I think he is 97 or 98.

    I thought I had set my mac to 2.2, but I will have to double check.
     
  12. Simon R Galley

    Simon R Galley Subscriber

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    Well we have had fun trying to sort this one out ! :

    We can date this to the early 50's : Its not in any of our TI books ( very rare ) it also has a non standard batch number ( if it had had a normal code we could still have dated it to the month of coating ). We are pretty sure therefore its a made special for the USA ( 11" is a USA size ) our font of all knowledge Martin Hadden ( joined ILFORD November 1970, and still with HARMAN ) remembers using 'waterproof base' and his opinion is that it is a paper for printing out colour aerial negs ( military product only ) it will be a double weight fibre base and that the waterproofing is actually a varnish applied to the coated product, ( KODAK did the same and called it RESIN COATED, which is accurate of course but not the RC we make nowadays ).

    Varnishing was a way of allowing multiple printing in a dish for FB ( kept it rigid ) it also improved the lie flat and the keeping properties.

    We would think the varnish will have yellowed.... and PANCHROMATIC papers are more prone to age related fog but hey !

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
     
  13. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Back in the early 70's there were still 3 or 4 photo-stores which specialised in surplus ex-government photo supplies. Marston & Heard, AW Young, Harringey Photographic Supplies etc. I bought quite a lot of waterproof RC bromide paper from one of them, it had a strange feel and finish but was surprisingly good quality, it wasn't at all like Ilfospeed which was released around the same time. It was sold in plain boxes, un-branded, or in large rolls.

    Ian
     
  14. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Thank you for devoting the time to figure this out, Simon. It is much appreciated. Please pass my thanks along to Mr. Hadden as well.

    The paper does not seem very yellowed. In fact, some of the Kodak and DuPont paper I have that is about 10 to 15 years younger than the Ilford (stored in the same location as the Ilford Pan Bromide) has yellowed MUCH more. What I have is perhaps three zones of lost whites due to fogging. Seems the whitest I can get is a zone VII. However, since this paper will be used to make negatives in camera, this can be compensated for by the way I rate the paper, and/or simply printed through.

    Indeed, Ian. The finish is rather unique. Here is the weird part: The max. white test piece dried glossy, and the max. black test piece dried like no other finish I've ever seen on photo paper. It is not matte, not semimatte, not semigloss, not gloss, not like RC, and not like fiber. It is very reminiscent of carbon copy paper: Mostly matte, but with a slight sheen, and catches finger oil like nobody's business...but just the oil; no actual prints get embedded, as they would with most photo papers.
     
  15. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Sounds about the same, my paper was conventional bromide, but as you say a unique sort of finish. Thereis just a slight off white tinge to the images, but no real yellowing.

    As a student the paper was a real bargain at the time, and the images I still have made on the paper have lasted very well, unlike the first Ilfospeed prints I made which suffered highlight bleaching with storage.

    Ian