Ilford says ''Color file is unsatisfactory for panchro bw paper''

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I downloaded ilford ilfospeed and gallerie digital bw panchro paper fact sheets and it says :

    Black and White prints can be made directly from colour
    digital files although the results are often unsatisfactory
    unless the file is first converted to greyscale. We would
    therefore recommend colour files be converted to
    Greyscale, prior to printing. The smaller files made by
    discarding the colour information are also much quicker to
    RIP and write. There is another advantage to doing this,
    as some colour originals printed straight to Black & White
    do not make suitable or interesting images without some
    adjustment to their contrast or density.


    If we can not print color image on panchro bw paper , what is the point of making panchro paper ?

    Umut
     
  2. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

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    The first few paragraphs of the datasheet give a hint to its purpose:

    GALERIE RC DIGITAL SILVER has been designed using the very latest black and white silver halide emulsion technology. It has spectral sensitivity and exposure characteristics specially suited to optical digital exposure systems with tricolour laser enlargers or LED systems produced by Durst, Océ, Pollielettronica, Fuji and others.

    GALERIE RC DIGITAL SILVER has excellent contrast, sharpness and surface finish that will give superb continuous tone black and white images or text from digital files prepared from either black and white or colour film negatives or positives, prints and digital originals. The results are equal to those seen when using conventional black and white printing materials and exposing equipment.
     
  3. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Thank you Hexavalent , my mother is making cake and I am running between computer and kitchen.

    Now the big question , how we can improve our bw prints via colored digital inkjet or analog negatives ? May be printing some areas different color shades , effecting some tones with different colors could improve our control on that panchro papers via these negatives.

    And what about ortho papers , stained negatives improves and our multicolor stained where these stains optimized to spectrum of papers , could open a new possibility ?

    I dont think amateurs could buy these digital printers but some film staining inks or printer .
     
  4. AgX

    AgX Member

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    The first statement in the quotation given by Umut contradicts these other statements above. In this Umut is right.


    Concerning colour contrast filters:
    They are not used in laser etc. line-exposure. And when one modifies the colours in the data files then of course one could make a greyscale file from the beginning. But then again the question arises, why make panchro material for laser exposure?

    In classical optical printing though one can use colour contrast filters and here panchro paper makes sense.
     
  5. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have been using this process for years.
    Our Lab was the first lab worldwide to offer Digital fibre Murals on Silver Gelatin Paper, we started with Agfa Classic which is not panchromatic.
    The Paper Harman introduced latter has an extended red sensitivity.

    I am not sure why, other than the red sensitivity may have been needed for the laser exposure to work. I think here lies your answer.

    I work exclusively with the Harmon Paper for laser and exposure, I do not make RC prints though and that is consistent with my enlarger work.
     
  6. Prof_Pixel

    Prof_Pixel Member

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    It's 'panchromatic' because it is designed to work with exposure systems using Red, Green and Blue lasers; not because it's designed for color film exposure with white light.
     
  7. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Another good point , I think it does make useless to try to invent on that paper. Thank you Prof.Pixel.
     
  8. AgX

    AgX Member

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    But still it is advised by Ilford to make geyscale files. To me then that special paper makes no sense aside of gaining speed.

    And such an approach is also employed with classical photographic paper and no-one speaks of ortho-paper or such...
     
  9. snapguy

    snapguy Member

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    obvious

    It seems pretty obvious this product was manufactured for digital files, not film negatives. It is very okay if Ilford makes this product although I will not be using it myself.
     
  10. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    We get panned for taking about scanning, so why has this any thing to do with APUG?
     
  11. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Because I thought painted negatives or color digital negatives would have more control on the processes. Now I am continueing on Ortho Paper and colored negative.
     
  12. AgX

    AgX Member

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    Because this paper though intended for digital exposure is nevertheless the only panchromatic paper left. (I don't know about the Minutka paper.)

    And as such it belongs to our portfolio.

    A discussion on the contradictions by Ilford in their statements about their use for digital printing may well be off-limits.
    But as seen above it could bring up something of interest for us.
     
  13. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    what is ortho paper and colored negatives ?

    black and white film that is hand colored in reverse and printed on ortho paper ?

    orthochromatic isn't sensitive to the panchromatic black and white spectrum
    sometimes it is only blue sensitive, sometimes only UV sensitive sometimes reds ..

    if you are trying to create color images with black and white materials you are better off making
    3 color separation negatives red green and blue ( with regular b/w film )
    and projecting them onto color printing materials or going to dpug and learning how to make modern tri color images ..

    not sure how hand colored black and white negatives would work with ortho papers ...
    although i am interested in learning how
     
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  15. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    John,

    As you know Pyro Developers have stain effect and it works on Ortho Paper. I am trying to put that effect with colored negatives.Either with digital color negatives or hand painted negatives. If it is sensitive to narrow spectrum of blue , it can be analysed to find effects of various shades , stains of blue or it can be used to make semi light transparent , colored dots to control the diffusion.

    Umut
     
  16. Ronald Moravec

    Ronald Moravec Member

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    You can filter the color file, say yellow to deepen blues, so when converted to grey, the file suits the paper better.

    I would filter, use covert to black.white, use levels to get good scale black to white, use mild contrast increase curve to punch it up some. This is almost the same as normal digital work flow
     
  17. Bill Burk

    Bill Burk Subscriber

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    As I understand this paper, it is a fixed grade paper. It was designed as a fixed grade paper, where the designed purpose is that you adjust contrast in the computer program to fit the paper perfectly. I've been interested in this paper because I am fascinated by the serendipity that a paper adapted to technology has brought me, as an analog photographer, a new paper that I want. Galerie is my favorite paper. Otherwise Galerie comes in Grades 2 and 3. This would be Grade 4. The fact it is panchromatic is sort of an inconvenience. But since I have an infrared viewer... it's not going to bother me. The fact it is fast is also going to make it harder for me to control... But I am looking forward to experimenting with it.
     
  18. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Bill, Do you have an laser printer ? Prof.Pixel indicated that these papers made to expose with RGB lasers not white light. How do you think to use that paper ? Did you see anyone uses that paper as white light printng paper ?
     
  19. Bill Burk

    Bill Burk Subscriber

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    My idea would be to use the Omega DII with the Aristo grid light source that I already have. So I would use white light (it's really a teal color). Since I would be ignoring the purpose it is designed for, there is some risk that it "will not work" as well as I would like it to. But right now, I think that it would be splendid.
     
  20. cowanw

    cowanw Member

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    No. My only point is that if you have a colour (say red) and it is translated into a grey, it may not be the luminance of grey you think it should be.
     
  21. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    i don't use pyro developers and i have never heard of this.
    seems strange seeing from what i hear, pyro stains are usually greenish
    and the opposite of green is magenta ...
     
  22. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    You are right on all counts , as I have been told by Harman.. Basically Grade 4 Galerie Paper with an extended red sensitivity. If you plan on using it Bill no safelights. Also not sure but I doubt it comes in cut sheets.
     
  23. Simon R Galley

    Simon R Galley Subscriber

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    Dear All,

    These very specialist coatings ( in RC and FB ) are designed for laser exposure ( very, very short exposures) and it is not made in sheet sizes as it is UNSUITABLE for conventional exposure and usage.

    I can assure you it has been thouroughly tested outside of these parameters to see if it had any commercial or specialist application or opportunity, it does not and it will not be sold as cut sheets.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
     
  24. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Thank you Simon. Some sells 8x10 sheets cut from long rolls and some wants to try these papers at their darkroom. What kind of problem they would face with ?

    Umut
     
  25. AgX

    AgX Member

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    But Bob Carnie used it in the classic way too :

     
  26. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    No , I have never used the RC or Fiber digital paper under an enlarger.

    I have only used it as intended with RGB laser exposure.

    Others have asked me but I am not interested, I use Ilford Warmtone and MG4 for enlarger work.