Ilford says extended wash = "warmest image colour" -- why is this?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Jarred McCaffrey, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. Jarred McCaffrey

    Jarred McCaffrey Member

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    Reading the insert for Ilford Mulitgrade Warmtone FB I noticed a strange notation in the section entitled "Optimum permanence - FB paper". They recommend the use of a washing aid then a 5 minute wash with the caveat "Extend to 30 minutes if the warmest image colour is needed."

    I'm familiar with warm/cold developers, but I didn't realize that super-washing could affect print color. Is this true and what is going on chemically here?
     
  2. Jon Shiu

    Jon Shiu Subscriber

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    The brighteners on this paper will wash out, I think.

    Jon
     
  3. Gay Larson

    Gay Larson Member

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    I've never read the insert (duh) but it explains why recently one of my prints on Ilford warm tone was considerably darker. Thanks, I'll follow the recommendations. I just didn't think 5 minutes would be enough rinse.
     
  4. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    How old is that paper? Ilford is no longer pushing their
    quick fix, 5, 10, 5, minute rinse-hca-rinse routine. They
    do encourage the use of a two bath fix.

    Personally I would not want to be one of the last few
    through a 40 8x10s per/liter working strength fix. Dan
     
  5. Jarred McCaffrey

    Jarred McCaffrey Member

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    How old is that paper---errr... one week. That explains why the price was better than B&H at my local photo shop.
     
  6. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    Are you sure about this, Dan? Only this PDF on Ilford's website still gives those recommendations (see the last page) - http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/warm_tone.pdf
     
  7. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    And that may be the only PDF that still does. At the
    Ilford site check out Ilford Rapid Fixer. I just reread the
    March 2002 PDF. I think you will agree that Ilford has
    dropped it's 5-10-5 Archival wash sequence. In fact
    that 5-10-5 minute sequence is not suggested
    for any purpose. Dan
     
  8. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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  9. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    I just read the pdf file on Ilford's site, rapid fixer and they still recommend the 5-10-5 and when you read the hypam pdf, it indicates the same.
     
  10. lee

    lee Member

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    I agree with the fact that Ilford still is promoting 5-10-5 in washing fiber base paper.

    Ann and FrankB are certainly correct in their statements. Page 2 right hand column third paragraph from the top.

    lee\c
     
  11. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    Thank god for that; I thought my eyesight was going! :smile:
     
  12. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    You have not read the March 2002 PDF which indicates a
    5-10-20 minute sequence.

    This matter is somewhat complex. Does anybody
    remember the Ilford Archival Wash Sequence? That
    sequence was predicated upon a 1 minute fix in FILM
    1:3 strength Rapid Fixer followed by the 5-10-5
    minute wash, their HCA, wash, routine.

    A year or two ago Ilford updated at least some PDFs.
    For those that remember the older PDFs you may
    recall specific mention of the Ilford Archival
    Sequence.

    Two important points: 1, that sequence is no longer
    mentioned March or August and 2, they do NOT distinguish
    twixt the 1:3 - 1:4 and 1:9 dilutions.

    My conclusion is that Ilford is no longer promoting their
    Archival Wash Sequence and the 5-10-5 wash routine
    which was part and partial with that sequence.

    So, it might be asked, will 5-10-5 do the job? Not for
    archival results and that is according to Ilford because
    the current PDFs also include the 1:9 2 minute fix.

    "For prints that need maximum stability ... " Ilford does
    mention the lower per unit volume silver levels permissable.

    Although Ilford does not even mention an Archival Sequence
    they do go into the details of the "extremely efficient" two
    bath method. Dan
     
  13. lee

    lee Member

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    first the link that I went to is the dec 2001 and I dont know where the pdf for 2002 is. Can you supply a link for this? If so, I would like to read it.

    I think I will continue to use a method of washing for about an hour as I know that I can get clean paper that way.

    lee\c
     
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  15. lee

    lee Member

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    the only Mar 2002 pdf I found on ilford.com is for gallery paper and if you follow down to the washing proceedures it does recommend 60 min now if you contiue down to Optimum it touts the old 5-10-5 routine.

    lee\c
     
  16. photomc

    photomc Member

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    have to agree with Lee, Ann and Frank...just went to Ilfords website and looked at the PDF for Ilford Rapid Fixer and it list the 5-10-5. The 60 min wash time is listed, but only when not using a wash aid. (this PDF was from Aug. 2002). So it is possible that Ilford has dropped the 5-10-5, but I find nothing on the website that indicates this.
     
  17. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    Dan, I'm confused as to which PDF's you're consulting. Could you post some links?

    Alternatively, please follow the links I've posted to the Ilford website where the PDF's (dated Aug 2002) myself and others have indicated do still refer to the 5-10-5 sequence.
     
  18. Lee Shively

    Lee Shively Member

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    There is something different about the Ilford recommendations on the 12/2001 pdf than the Ilford WT paper insert I have hanging on the wall of my darkroom. The fixing/washing procedure appears to be different and there's nothing in the pdf about a two-fixer bath. A separate 12/2001 pdf, "Processing B&W Paper", does mention the two fixers.

    I'm at work right now, doing this while I'm trying to do other stuff, so I can't compare the information and I might have missed something in the pdfs from the Ilford website.
     
  19. ann

    ann Subscriber

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    well, the easiest thing is to go to the horses mouth, i am going to check with Ilford, or at least with someone who has their ear.
     
  20. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    I'll put that above quote differently as it is misleading.
    At least according to Ilford an adherence to the Ilford
    Archival Sequence will yield archival results.

    According to Martin Reed in his article Mysteries of the
    Vortex, Photo Techniques Special Issue #11, "Major research
    by Ilford culminated in the 1981 publication of their archival
    processing sequence, based on careful control of the quality
    and timing of the fixing stage."

    In a nut shell; a very short wash time results from the use
    of a high strength fixer for a short period of time. In 1981
    the time was 30 seconds in Ilford Universal Rapid Fixer
    diluted 1:3. The paper base, which is slow to wash,
    is, even with a stronger fix, less affected.

    But the sequence, due to the high levels of silver at full or
    near full capacity in that one fix, is very dependent upon
    an extended 10 minute stay in Ilford's brand of HCA.

    This whole issue is much ado about nearly nothing. With
    FB papers I consider nothing less than an Archival routine.
    I've mentioned the word archival several times. That is
    the context in which I write. The OP's mention of a
    5 minute wash is what set me off. I didn't mean
    to ruffle any feathers. Dan
     
  21. lee

    lee Member

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    but the point is Dan they STILL recommend the 5-10-5 in EACH of the pdfs. You said the recommendations from Ilford had changed and now that people challenged you, you have attempted to change the conversation. It may be much ado about nothing to you but you attempted to tell me that I did not know what I have read on Ilford's site. I don't appreciate being called a liar in so many words. Where you get your ideas I will never know and until you show me work you have actually produced that proves you know what the heck you think you know I will take you as someone trying to appear to be something you are not. Time to put up or shut up, Dan.

    lee\c
     
  22. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    At the end of the day, we'll each use which approach we believe to be best.

    Please let's not start another "I'm right, you're wrong" session. There have been far too many of these on APUG recently and I haven't seen anything good come out of any of them.

    If anyone feels that they have a personal disagreement to settle then please, PM is the way to do this.
     
  23. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    To help clarify this discussion I spoke to the Technical Director of IlfordPhoto in the UK who assured me that the information on the website was checked by his department last year and they stand by it.
     
  24. dancqu

    dancqu Member

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    www.ilford.fr/pdf/chimie/CH_RapidFixer.pdf -

    The above PDF contains the 5-10-20 minute wash routine.
    Do you think they mixed it up with their 5-10-20 inversion film
    wash routine? That 5-10-20 minute wash sequence is in part
    responsible for some misunderstandings and confusion. Dan
     
  25. FrankB

    FrankB Member

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    Interesting, Dan. I wasn't aware of the French site. (Very Anglo-centric of me! :smile: )

    Their PDF's don't seem to be in synch with the .com version. http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/Rapid_fixer.pdf is dated Aug 2002 and gives the 5-10-5!

    No wonder there was confusion all round. (Personally I use a 5-10-30, but then I'm paranoid!)

    Thanks for clearing this up.

    All the best,

    Frank
     
  26. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    Dan, when I spoke to Martin yesterday he assured me that his staff had checked every method and technique on the website for accuracy so I don't think there can be any mix up. I have known and worked with the people who did the checking for many years and know that they are very reliable.
     
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