I'm suffering from gainer illiteracy

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by argentic, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. argentic

    argentic Member

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    I always thought manufacturers were taking a laugh at us poor consumers by using different names for the same developers. But now I realise that it's probably some trojan virus you get when downloading photography into your brain.

    I'm following the different "gainer-threads" with a lot of interest. But I'm losing trac in the midst of all these different tea blends. That's doubtlesly due to my limited intellectual abilities. I would nonetheless like somebody to explain to me once and for all : which blend is which?

    Pyro-TEA
    ABC Pyro
    P-TEA
    Pyro-TEA
    PMK
    Pyrocat-HD
    WD2D
    Rollo Pyro
    CAT-P-TEA
    PC-TEA
    P-C-TEA
    PCP-TEA
    Q-P-TEA
    PQ-TEA
    QP-TEA
    PM-TEA
    MP-TEA
    PG-TEA
    PT
    DS-10
    DS-12
    MC-G
    MP-G
    PG
    PQ
    PG/PQ
    PQ-PG
    PC-PG
    PC-Glycol
    PG-Glycol
    PQ-Glycol
    MC-Glycol
    MQ-Glycol
    Amidol/PG
    MS Amidol (Microsoft Amidol ??)
    Exactol Lux
    DiXactol
    Sandy King's Pyrocat HD
    Mytol
    XTol
    Etol
    Urinol
    Prescysol
    PD-76
    DD-76
    E-76
    PPPD
    PAP
    Darjeerling

    I probably missed a few. But I can assure you that I DO know what ID-11 is! :wink:

    GD
     
  2. psvensson

    psvensson Member

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    Sounds like you have a bit of catching up to do :smile:. Rather than trust messageboards, I'd recommend going to the source and getting this year's second issue of Photo Techniques from phototechmag.com. It contains Gainer's article on developers that use glycol and TEA. Also get the Film Developing Cookbook. Both are must-haves for anyone who mixes his or her own.

    Of course, the comment about the messageboards is general advice. Make an exception and trust this post.
     
  3. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    It is confusing. A lot of this stuff with TEA (triethanolamine) and PG (propylene glycol) are being made up as we go along - they've never really been published as formulas. Go to unblinkingeye.com and read Patrick Gainer's articles and Sandy King's articles. Sandy created Pyrocat-HD developer.

    As for some of the others, MS Amidol is Michael A. Smith's version of the Amidol print developer - go to his site michaelandpaula.com - you will be reading quite a while.

    PPPD is a pyro based print developer compounded by Don Miller and first (I believe) published on this site.


    I'm exhausted. Someone else take over.
    juan
     
  4. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Good job, Jay.

    One correction: The WD2D developing reagents are Pyrogallol and Metol. WD2D is John Wimberly's creation.
     
  5. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    Yes, Jay, very good job. With regards to Pyro/TEA developers, the Photographers Formulary product is named, by them, Pyrotriethanolamine. It would probably be best to discuss that developer by the entire name to distinguish it from Gainer's Pyro-TEA.
    juan
     
  6. psvensson

    psvensson Member

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    I don't think MC-Glycol and MQ-Glycol exist. Apparently metol doesn't dissolve in glycol. It does dissolve in TEA, according to a previous poster.
     
  7. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Then there is the question of Glycin.

    I have determined by test that Glycin is not soluble in propylene glycol or ethylene glycol (up to 300 F). Glycin also was not soluble in methanol, isopropanol or ethyl alcohol.

    Is Glycin soluble in triethanolamine? I suspect that it is.

    I will know the answer by the end of the day.
     
  8. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    "I'm following the different "gainer-threads" with a lot of interest. But I'm losing trac in the midst of all these different tea blends. That's doubtlesly due to my limited intellectual abilities."

    Me too.
     
  9. sanking

    sanking Member

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    WD2D(+) is pyrogallol based but uses sodium carbonate as the accelerator instead of metaborate as in PMK and Rollo Pyro.
     
  10. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Me too!

    I'm starting with an Ansco-130 type formulation split into 2 parts:

    A Solution

    Triethanolamine 130ml
    Metol 4.4 grams
    Hydroquinone 22 grams
    Potassium Bromide 11 grams
    Glycin 22 grams
    Triethanolamine to make 200ml


    B Solution

    Water 700 ml
    Sodium Sulfite 100 grams
    Sodium Carbonate 160 grams
    Water to 1 liter

    Working solution: 50 ml A + 250 ml B + 700 ml water

    If this works ok (in other words like Ansco 130), I will try replacing the Hydroquinone (22 grams) with Pyrocatechol (18 grams).

    Another obvious experiment is to replace the Sodium Carbonate entirely with TEA.
     
  11. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    Jay, I plan to dissolve the Glycin in TEA first - if that works, I'll go on from there. By the way, Glycin/TEA should produce results comparable to Agfa 8 film developer. Agfa 8 gives results similar to Rodinal.

    Agfa 8
    Water (125 F or 52 C) - 50.0 ml
    Sodium Sulfite - 12.5 grams
    Glycin - 2.0 grams
    Potassium Carbonate - 25.0 grams
    Water to make - 1.0 liter

    I chose Ansco 130 as a starting point because it is one of my favorite print developers. I have a freshly mixed batch of standard Ansco 130 on hand to provide a direct comparison for the TEA version.
     
  12. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I mixed up a batch of 130/TEA last night. I dissolved the Glycin in TEA first - it went into solution between 250F and 260F. Then I added the Metol and Hydroquinone - both dissolved with no problems around 250F. I added the KBr last and had to stir for a long time at 260F in order to dissolve all of it. In the next batch, I'll add the KBr to the working developer as a percentage solution (which is what I normally do anyway).

    Now I need to test the stuff and see if it performs like the original Ansco 130 formula. :tongue:
     
  13. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Yes, the only thing wrong with Jay's list is that it does not cover the other 50-100 permutations of the Pees and Tees that are about to be reported. We have already seen Cat Pee Tea and Pee Pee Tea. What is next?

    The scenario reminds me a bit of a current computer commercial in which a woman interroagates the man and starts the questioning with, "Where were you next Thursday?"

    Pat, what have you unleashed on an unsuspecting world if not unmoderated chaos?

    Sandy
     
  14. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    And to think, I was just trying to find a way to keep stock solutions a long time. WHAT HAVE I DONE?
     
  15. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Thank god I've stuck to X-tol (replenished its a few years old now) and my good old Ceylon or Assam tea as a processing aid.

    Pyrocat HD lurks in my darkroom and intial trials were interesting but I've lost the negs !!!!, but when the pressures on to get work out and on the wall for an exhibition experimenting and trialling a new developer goes out the window.
     
  16. argentic

    argentic Member

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    Are we filling the gap of shutdown Kodak&Co analog laboratories? AFAIK science is about experimenting in a controlled methodical way, and publishing results so the whole scientific community can advance. I don't know about the controlled methodss. But all this communication looks a lot like scientific exchange of information :wink:

    Gilbert
     
  17. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I would expect a Glycin/TEA combination to behave like Agfa 8 (formula posted earlier in this thread). In other words, I expect it to behave much like Rodinal.

    Crawley used the combination of Glycin, Hydroquinone and Phenidone in his FX-11 formulation and the combination does appear to be superadditive.

    I'll let you know what happens.
     
  18. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    You would find that Pyrocat HD with enough sulfite would give no stain. Pyrogallol will also be stainless with enough sulfite. More and more sulfite is required as you go from one to another of those. The tanning action is more difficult to get rid of.

    Also, in each case you would find that the superadditivity between metol or phenidone and these agents will increase to a point as sulfite is added. When you want both stain and synergism, add as little sulfite as possible.
     
  19. sanking

    sanking Member

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    I am confused with all of the new names but assume that QP-TEA is hydroquinone + phenidone? If so I am fairly surprised that you are getting any significant developer activity at all with this combination. The threshold of development pH for hydroquinone is 10.0, and TEA gives a working pH of less than 9.5 in all of the formulas I have tried it in. Threshold of development is slightly lower (pH 9.5) with pyrocatechin, and much lower (pH 8.0) with pyrogallol. What I suspect may be happening is that the primary development activity is being carried out by phenidone and the hydroquinone is just barely entering into the mix. The could explain the lack of stain as phenidone does not stain.

    On two occasions I substituted hydroquinone for pyrocatechin in the Pyrocat-HD formula and got lots of stain, in fact much more than I wanted, and there appeared to be even more synergism between hydroquinone and phenidone than with pyrocatechin and phenidone. I was not satisfied with the experiments for various reasons and concluded there was little if anything to be gained by the substitution so abandoned the work.

    Sandy
     
  20. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    If you have a neg you can sacrifice, bleach out the silver with Farmer's reducer and see if anything remains. The stain images of each, catechol, pyrogallol and hydroquinone are different colors.

    Another approach is to bleach a non-stained silver neg with rehalogenating bleach (same as would be used for sulfide sepia toning) and redevelop in a mixture of hydroquinone and carbonate solution. Proportions are not critical. This should tell you what color to look for. I have found it mkes a pretty good intensifier.
     
  21. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    Sandy,

    The pH threshold of hydroquinone with either metol or phenidone and a little bit of sulfite is much lower than the pH threshold of hydroquinone alone. I can't imagine phenidone doing all the work without being itself oxidized. When that happens, the solution turns pink to red. If you try leaving the catechol out of Pyrocat, I doubt that the activity will be much. Same with hydroquinone and phenidone. I know that would be true for my solutions, where I use a Q:tongue: ratio of about 40:1.

    There is little we can say about a synergistic mixture by looking at the behavior of individual components. Most people will say that phenidone is not much affected by bromide. The graph of superadditivity of phenidone and hydroquinone in "Theory of the Photographic Process" shows that the combination is greatly affected by bromide content. All I'm saying is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You know I didn't coin that phrase. My great-great-great grandmother might have, I don't know.

    I think there should be some stain, as you saw in your trial. I'm not going to say anyone will like its color. It won't hurt my feelings if no one ever uses it. I only use it as an intensifier because I have the ingredients handy. I have used PMK for the same purpose, but it's more expensive and maybe a little more toxic.
     
  22. tob

    tob Member

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    I mixed a batch of Q-P-TEA as per Patrick's formula (10g Hydroquinone, 0.2g Phenidone, 100ml TEA) and tried it on a roll of Tri-X. To be on the safe side I used a 1+30 dilution and developed the roll for 17.5 minutes at 21°C. The negatives do have a brown stain that looks rather prominent to me but then I can't compare it to negs developed with Pyro or Catechol. Grain is reduced, the negatives are sharp and do print well on grade 2.

    Does anybody have dilutions/times to compare? HP5+ anyone?

    Tobias