Intaglio Print Thickness and Pigment ratio compared rotogravure, banknote intaglio ?

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I learned rotogravure print is 4 times thicker (8um) and banknote intaglio print is 15 times (30um)thicker than the offset (2 um) print. And banknote intaglio print have 6 -12 times more pigment (% 50) than the the rotogravure print (%4 to %8).

    How that compares to artist intaglio print ?

    Mustafa Umut Sarac
    Istanbul
     
  2. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Good question Mustafa

    Even better question would be How does the pigment load of an Intaglio print compare to that of a inkjet piezo print?
     
  3. momus

    momus Subscriber

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    I think it's impossible to tell, since intaglio is a broad term that might mean lines that are etched by acid, such as an Aquatint, hard ground, sugar lift, etc. Or it could be lines etched by hand such as a dry point, mezzotint, engraving, etc. Each technique produces etched lines of different thicknesses, and types, or quality. A dry point will produce an etched line w/ raged edges that will hold ink in a very different manner than an etching.

    As the plates are wiped clean w/ the palm of the hand for a LONG time before printing, leaving the ink only in the etched lines, it's impossible to know how much ink is in there. The ink is not measured, it's glopped out of the can w/ your hand and pushed into the lines. It doesn't matter how much ink, as w/ all hand made prints the viscosity of the ink, the paper it's printed on, and the style of the printer are all the things which will determine how the final print looks. An inkjet print, regardless of the type, is something made by a machine. Boo!
     
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  4. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I am speaking of two possible ways, both using polymer plates which have the potential of raised surface or recessed surface.

    one method which I have done is the raised surface where each colour and black is rolled on to the raised surface, the ink is mixed just before printing and plate is prepared then with pressure each layer is put down..

    second method which I have not done YET is the recessed surface where the ink goes into the recess and the top is wiped off then with pressure the ink is transferred to the paper.

    In both cases the ink I am referring to is of the most light fast available.

    The pigment load in my laymans mind is very high, then I think of the inkjet prints that I also do by shooting ink through a nozzel, and from my understanding the pigment load is much smaller to get through the nozzels..

    Therefore my question which one has the possibility to last longer?

    Second question as I have no history learned of the intaglio or photo gravure process , when did this process start using colours? and how long do these prints last?
    There must be some here amongst us who have a background of ink printing and may have some answers.

    I am most interested in four colour and I thank Mustafa for bringing this thread.
     
  5. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Bob , I will write an article with samples from my 200 000 pages Imperial and Soviet Archaeology journals collection. There are 1903 color prints and you will understand how much amazing the quality of printing that day. It is better than Kodachrome or Velvia.

    Little bit history from wikipedia.

    Michael Sullivan writes that "the earliest color printing known in China, and indeed in the whole world, is a two-color frontispiece to a Buddhist sutra scroll, dated 1346". Color prints were also used later in the Ming Dynasty.[1] In Chinese woodblock printing, early color woodcuts mostly occur in luxury books about art, especially the more prestigious medium of painting. The first known example is a book on ink-cakes printed in 1606, and color technique reached its height in books on painting published in the seventeenth century. Notable examples are Hu Zhengyan's Treatise on the Paintings and Writings of the Ten Bamboo Studio of 1633, and the Mustard Seed Garden Painting Manual published in 1679 and 1701
    Europe

    Most early methods of color printing involved several prints, one for each color, although there were various ways of printing two colors together if they were separate. Liturgical and many other kinds of books required rubrics, normally printed in red; these were long done by a separate print run with a red forme for each page. Other methods were used for single leaf prints. The chiaroscuro woodcut was a European method developed in the early 16th century, where to a normal woodcut block with a linear image (the "line block"), one or more colored "tone blocks" printed in different colors would be added. This was the method developed in Germany; in Italy only tone blocks were often used, to create an effect more like a wash drawing. Jacob Christoph Le Blon developed a method using three intaglio plates, usually in mezzotint; these were overprinted to achieve a wide range of colors.
    Japan
    Bijin (beautiful woman) ukiyo-e by Keisai Eisen, before 1848

    Eisen1.jpg

    In Europe and Japan, color woodcuts were normally only used for prints rather than book illustrations. In Japan color technique, called nishiki-e in its fully developed form, spread more widely, and was used for prints, from the 1760s on. Text was nearly always monochrome, as were images in books, but the growth of the popularity of ukiyo-e brought with it demand for ever increasing numbers of colors and complexity of techniques. By the nineteenth century most artists worked in color. The stages of this development were:

    Sumizuri-e (墨摺り絵, "ink printed pictures") - monochrome printing using only black ink
    Benizuri-e (紅摺り絵, "crimson printed pictures") - red ink details or highlights added by hand after the printing process;green was sometimes used as well
    Tan-e (丹絵) - orange highlights using a red pigment called tan
    Aizuri-e (藍摺り絵, "indigo printed pictures"), Murasaki-e (紫絵, "purple pictures"), and other styles in which a single color would be used in addition to, or instead of, black ink
    Urushi-e (漆絵) - a method in which glue was used to thicken the ink, emboldening the image; gold, mica and other substances were often used to enhance the image further. Urushi-e can also refer to paintings using lacquer instead of paint; lacquer was very rarely if ever used on prints.
    Nishiki-e (錦絵, "brocade pictures") - a method in which multiple blocks were used for separate portions of the image, allowing a number of colors to be utilized to achieve incredibly complex and detailed images; a separate block would be carved to apply only to the portion of the image designated for a single color. Registration marks called kentō (見当) were used to ensure correspondence between the application of each block.

    19th century
    The modern revival of colour-printing from wood-blocks, inaugurated by Whittingham, Leighton, and others, owes its full success to the energy, enterprise, and artistic skill of Edmund Evans. It is this printer that we have to thank for the delightful coloured plates by Caldecott, Greenaway, and Crane, that during the last thirty years have won the affection of old and young.
    —English coloured books 1906

    Still-life_of_fruit_using_3-color_process.jpg

    In the 19th century a number of different methods of color printing, using woodcut (technically Chromoxylography) and other methods, were developed in Europe, which for the first time achieved widespread commercial success, so that by the later decades the average home might contain many examples, both hanging as prints and as book illustrations. George Baxter patented in 1835 a method using an intaglio line plate (or occasionally a lithograph), printed in black or a dark color, and then overprinted with up to twenty different colors from woodblocks. Edmund Evans used relief and wood throughout, with up to eleven different colors, and latterly specialized in illustrations for children's books, using fewer blocks but overprinting non-solid areas of color to achieve blended colors. Artists such as Randolph Caldecott, Walter Crane and Kate Greenaway were able to draw influence from the Japanese prints now available and fashionable in Europe to create a suitable style, with flat areas of color.

    Chromolithography was another process, which by the end of the 19th century had become dominant, although this used multiple prints with a stone for each color. Mechanical color separation, initially using photographs of the image taken with three different color filters, reduced the number of prints needed to three. Zincography, with zinc plates, later replaced lithographic stones, and remained the most common method of color printing until the 1930s.
     
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  6. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Fascinating Umut

    thank you very much for such a wonderful response.

    I am very serious about the four colour process as I am making four colour separation negatives via inkjet and as well silver negatives from my Lambda76 (big image setter)

    To date we have pretty much tried every process that I want to work with. for colour we have been doing tri colour gum over pt pd with amazing success and as well I have had great progress with intaglio raised polymer plates, ( we can make these in house so there is total control)


    What I would like to ask you is specifically where would I find the inks that exhibit the century old light fastness results, and of course who makes them, or do they have to be custom made.??

    rgards

    Bob
     
  7. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Bob , Nanopowders are the latest toys for colorants. I have an article on APUG also. For strong inks formulas , you can google patent search
    for banknote printing inks. Its not problem to find source , it is the problem of be able to buy small amounts. If United States produces 1100 , Europe produces 700 and Japan produces 500 amount of ink worldwide.

    Raised surface is faraway less controllable than opposite and you cant load ink as much as you want. Tief- hole- druck , rotogravure process is able to hold more ink in its dots and you can control the tonal variation and strong tones with faraway more success.

    I will send you an ink book and some scans of national geographic today. I decided to write an article also .

    Umut
     
  8. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I will answer that question but takes time.

    Umut
     
  9. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    thank you

    another associate of mine mentioned the fact that the recessed plate holds more ink/pigment load and has much more control
    I am holding my breath waiting for your response on the ink

    thanks

    Bob
     
  10. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    May be I dont know what is the recessed means. There are two things , positive surface offset , negative surface , rotogravure , I am sorry for wrong understanding. I am starting to upload the books to your site.
     
  11. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Security Document Printers- Vienna 2013 Gathering

    Bob , there are 200 ink manufacturers only in USA supplies % 40 of the world. For quick reference , I am adding the most important printers list and addresses at a text file. Its up to you to try to buy their inks because I think they only do with business with heavily guarded print houses.

    Good luck,
    Umut
     

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  12. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have printed lately positive surface offset, I would like to try negative surface rotogravure.

     
  13. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Yes Bob , that would be great. I started to search books for nano powder added inks. I remembered a fake dollar printers story at discovery channel , he had had been cut a small piece of dollar and sent to a ink supplier and few weeks later , he got tons of inks. I dont know who does that job , I am trying to make a pigment revealing test for an 1989 National Geographic Magazine. There are many universities around my home and need to hold my bud to work with them. If I succeed , I will report here.
     
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  15. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Color business is difficult , when I was working at prepress 20 years ago, our manager was shouting to print house managers - they were old friends - as assholes , you need to use spectrophotometers while printing. In fact , their printers have came with automatic spectrophotometers but nobody knows how to use them ! I looked to x rite site and manual was very complex still for today when everybody uses computers and telephones. Art directors were not aware of pantone color chart use , they always want pigment color from cmyk print.
    I looked to

    Copper Plate Photogravure:
    Demystifying the Process
    David Morrish
    and
    Marlene MacCallum

    and its about black ink printing. I dont know if there is a color gravure printing book. I dont know how you measure offset plate density before printing also ? There are meters for that but very expensive. Please shed some light Bob !
    I think plate suppliers have a booklet to expose the plate. Next year , I will start studying printing press business and my goal is to be a rotogravure printer. After few weeks of holiday break , I will visit printing high school and university and collect books and notes. I love that business.
    Umut
     
  16. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

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    If you can find one of Luis Nadeau's books on the history of printing, it's a treasure trove of information, and has references for further research.

    Just to be a spoil-sport, I have to ask what this has to do with analog photography - it's more about mechanical reprographics than film.
     
  17. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have his books , they are great .

    I am interested in gravure printing with heavy pigment loaded inks. I am separating my colour images into the CMYK negatives and printing them through an etching press.
    On the same line of thought I am also making pt pd prints with tri colour separation negs being used in register via the gum process to add colour.

    To date I have found out that I can make full colour prints by hand using the darkroom to make these prints ( therefore the relevance to analog photography)

    What I am trying to establish is a working colour process *** done that*** that has a archival aspect that is greater than RA4 , Cibachrome and inkjet. (currently doing two of these and ditched the Ciba 7 years ago)
    I am prepared to make tri colour colour carbon process as well , and at this stage of my life I have thousands of colour solarizations that need printing.

    My quest right now is to establish to myself which process suits my needs. I can do all of the three hand processes , they all involve making film(analog wet process}, one involves making a plate and using a etching press, the other two involve a wet darkroom and film.(analog) I like all three methods, the ink is the easiest, the gum over is second easiest and the carbon is the hardest.

    If you have any thoughts on which process would likely have the most archival properties I am all ears. My life is completely absorbed in making colour and black white solarizations
    and I have a timeline to print, right now every month I am exposing film and currently a lot of c41 is being solarized...
    I hope to be printing out my editions and before I start that I want to examine every possible colour process that I can do and has a chance of lasting beyond 100years.





    QUOTE=Hexavalent;1608216]If you can find one of Luis Nadeau's books on the history of printing, it's a treasure trove of information, and has references for further research.

    Just to be a spoil-sport, I have to ask what this has to do with analog photography - it's more about mechanical reprographics than film.[/QUOTE]
     
  18. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Bob , my logic tells me , the more pigment , the more time the ink lose its color. For all oil painting paints , I can say they are not strong. I think you can contact with CIRI and talk with a chemical engineer. Their manager have 50 years of ink testing experience. May be they tell sell you an formula and give you a contact address to order manufacturing it. May be you can buy or order an banknote ink from china.
     
  19. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

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    Bob, "carbon process" is likely the most archival process, IF the pigments used are non-fugitive, the support is durable, non-yellowing, etc., etc., There are likely polymers other that are more stable than gelatin (even PVA glue can be used for "carbon transfer").

    Going the distance to full CMYK separations takes colour to a whole new level, in both effort and results. Not for the faint of heart! Carbro, rather than ordinary carbon is the usual route for "high-end".
     
  20. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have no issue going the full distance on CMYK separations , that for me is the easy part.

    Devils advocate now... you mention the carbon process as most likely the most archival... All of my research points out that the pigments whether carbon, gum and to the extent of hand pull gravures could use the same pigment sets, or it is possible to use very similar.

    Carbon introduces a gelatin support , the others are slightly different and in what the pigments are being spread onto the paper with.

    so with this in mind what different characteristics are in play that would make the gum pigment process less archival or even the ink pigment process less archival? Is there factors in place that I am not aware of?

     
  21. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    When I google CIRI I get an investment company, who are you referring to and do you have a link.
    I would rather not talk about banknotes, please.

    Honest BIG BROTHER I am just trying to make some nice long lasting prints.


     
  22. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    For contact : http://webapp.northampton.edu/forms/cmed/

    CIRI: The Coating and Ink Research Institute

    Coating & Ink Reseach Institute

    ETAC's Coating and Ink Research Institute (CIRI) helps companies experiment with new materials and processes or diagnose the cause of coating and printing problems, all without shutting down production or making large capital expenditures.

    With laboratories located at the NCC Fowler Family Southside Center and NCC North Campus in Bethlehem, CIRI helps companies improve their competitive positions. ETAC's experienced technical staff and laboratory facilities can analyze and improve a wide variety of coating and ink processes.

    Coatings
    CIRI can help tackle the complicated challenge of identifying the best coatings for product quality, cost and environmental regulations. CIRI can help you find more environmentally-friendly materials that produce a durable, high-quality product. CIRI researches and works with the newest alternatives to traditional solvents, including powder, water-borne, natural oil, high solids and radiation-cured coatings. Other benefits include reduced curing and process time, improved working conditions, and more precise control that reduce the risk of product damage.

    Inks
    Using a wide array of up-to-date print testing equipment, CIRI can help your company make your ink-related products and processes more cost-effective and environmentally sustainable. Our new, state-of-the-art printing test equipment from Testprint is ideal for printers, packaging firms, and manufacturers of ink, paper, rollers, blankets, founts and presses.

    Our printing and testing equipment includes:

    IGT F-1 for flexo and gravure
    Little Joe Letterpress & Offset Printability Tester
    Prufbau testers for litho
    Bohlin, Haake, Duke and Brookfield Inkometers
    Comprehensive Abrasion Tester
    Duke Emulsification Tester
    Datacolor and X-Rite equipment
    Dispersion testing equipment from Eiger, Cowles and Hoover.
    Other coating and ink research equipment includes:

    Infrared, convection ovens
    Ultraviolet and electron beam curing chambers
    Spectrophotometers, viscometers and rheometers
    Color and gloss analyzer
    Proof press
    Forced air drying
    RF, microwave heating and curing systems
     
  23. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    thank you once again
     
  24. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Bob,

    by the way intaglio or rotogravure inks contains high amount of toluene and most easy to flow inks in the market. If I am not wrong , they replaced with soy extract. Its more expensive and worse at colors. National Geographic tried it and its high smell and worse colors made NGS turned to toluene again. There is two ways , enviromentally friendly and worse colors and harmful and better colors like leaded glass is better but banned. And there is alcohol inks which evaporates very fast and leaves clearer dots. I dont know whether you want to play with toluene.
    I read an research from cancer research institute and there is high rate of cancer among printers .
    ps. If you ask them , ask them how to dry your print when there is no high heat blower. And there is uv dry inks , new research.
    ps2:check for water based gravure inks
     
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  25. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    USA Most Important Gravure Ink Manufacturers

    Accent Ink
    Advantage Inks & Coatings Inc
    American Color Technology, LLC
    American Inks & Coatings Corp.
    Arpro M-Tec
    Brewers Printing Ink of Georgia
    CAI Inc.
    Capex Corp.
    Cavalier Printing Ink Co.
    Chemical Research/ Technology
    Coating Systems Inc.
    Color Resolutions International LLC
    Colorcon/No-Tox Products
    Cronite Companies
    Custom Color Ink and Coating
    DayGlo Color Corp.
    ECKART America Corporation
    Environmental Inks - a member of the Siegwerk group
    Flint Group (North America
    Graphix Essentials
    Hi-Tech Color Inc.
    Interactive Inks and Coatings
    INX International Ink Co.
    J.M. Fry Co.
    Kolorcure Corporation
    Lakeland laboratory Inc.
    LioChem, Inc
    Megami Corporation
    Polytex Environmental Ink Ltd.
    Premier Ink Systems Inc.
    Quantum Ink
    RUCO USA Inc.
    Secure Ink Technology
    Selective Coatings & Inks
    Siegwerk
    Sun Chemical North American Inks
    Superior Printing Ink Co.
    Toyo Ink America Llc
    Wikoff Color Corp.

    http://www.inkworldmagazine.com/us-ink-directory/gravure-inks/
     
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  26. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Akua Intaglio and Relief Ink Videos and Color Chart

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI2oh8CBzbcS8ezun5KPWVA

    http://www.akuainks.com/watch-video-demos

    About Akua Intaglio
    Water-based Ink for Intaglio & Relief
    Akua Intaglio is a printmaker’s dream come true. Originally formulated for intaglio printmaking, this ink can also be applied with a brayer for relief printmaking, monotype, and collagraphs; and it will print from any plastic, wood, linoleum or metal plate. They contain no driers, offering a long working time for monotype or wiping the plate.
    Made with Soy and Light fast Pigments
    Akua Intaglio is a soy based ink made with the same high quality lightfast pigments as Akua Liquid Pigment. It has a thick consistency with minimal water content.
    Clean up with soap and water
    Akua Intaglio ink cleans up easily with a dry rag followed by soap and water. Inexpensive liquid dish detergent can be used. Never use toxic solvents.agian.
    Permanent
    Prints can be re-soaked immediately after printing if handled carefully. Once the print is dry, Akua-Intaglio is permanent.
    Never Skins or Hardens in the Jar
    Ink will never skin or harden in the jar or on the ink slab, so no ink is ever wasted.
    Easy to Use
    Wiping the plate with Akua Intaglio is easier than wiping oil-based ink. Less wiping pressure and time is required.
    Excellent Results
    Wipes nice and clean while the paper picks up the ink efficiently.
    Option To Print on Damp or Dry Paper
    Choose to print on dry or damp paper according to what may be best suited for your technique. Plates with greater tonal value, deeply bitten or raised surfaces require dampened paper. It may not be necessary to dampen paper for shallow bitten plates with high contrast images. Monotypes print best on dry smooth paper.

    COLORS IN ATTACHED PDF FILE
     

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